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Trainer Dan
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Philosopher. Animal behavior consultant. Anarchist. Will work for sats.

#dogstr

Archer doesn’t care what the Bitcoin-USD exchange rate is, he just loves to hike and chase 🐿️

The problem is that the government is already a gatekeeper in most if not all of these sorts of activities. The only thing different, fundamentally, about digital ID is that it is easier to implement efficiently with a smaller bureaucracy than the current system. I’m not saying this is a nothingburger. The level of threat the government poses is definitely increased by digital ID. But the fact of the matter is that most citizens are so used to government friction in their day-to-day lives that making it digital and streamlining certain aspects of functionality will actually be perceived by many as a good thing. It’s hard to convince them that one of the biggest things protecting us from government overreach has been the inefficiency of bureaucracy.

Trying to make my bed but there’s a dog on it…

I found the following largely accurate summary of the state of the debate on nostr:nprofile1qqsvnvvlln2ru6jlyweayugxecv7ftfdlzd6zqca63sh7x6ercggjegprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctvqy28wumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hs869qrd's feed https://primal.net/e/nevent1qqsda06kthpra62zyjr6qnjk6l6s2vmq7wmvaktrrvjzcxce8y6y2hgn73f2r

Replying to Avatar calle

This is a long post that hopefully bridges some gaps between technical people (devs) and non-technical users and how they look at spam prevention in Bitcoin. I hope that it clarifies why I think that there is such a huge misunderstanding between both camps.

I'll preface this post with first disqualifying any malicious attempts to misrepresent the motives of either camp. Everybody wants to improve Bitcoin as money. Money is Bitcoin's use case. It's not a data storage system. If you think otherwise, there are countless shitcoins to play with.

Alright, let's get into it.

I have worked on anonymous systems for over a decade. I have read tons of research on spam detection, rate-limiting, and I've implemented spam prevention techniques in the real world.

I am very confident to say that there is not a single known method to prevent spam in decentralized anonymous open networks other than proof of work.

This is what Satoshi realized when he designed Bitcoin and it's why only transaction fees can reliably fight spam without sacrificing any of Bitcoin's properties.

Let me explain.

Spam prevention is a cat and mouse game. As a system's architect, your goal is to make the life of a spammer harder (increase the friction). This is why, on the web, you see captchas, sign-ups, or anything that can artificially slow you down. Slowing down is key. This is why Satoshi turned to proof of work.

Let's contrast this to other methods for spam prevention. This is not an exhaustive list but it illustrates the design space of this problem, other methods are often derivatives of these:

CAPTCHAS are a centralized form of proof of work for humans: Google's servers give you a hard-to-solve task (select all bicycles) that will slow you down so that you can't bombard a website with millions of requests. It requires centralization: you need to prove Google that you're human so that you can use another website. If you could host your own CAPTCHA service, why would anyone believe you're not cheating?

LOGINS with email and passwords are most popular way to slow down users. Before you can sign up, you need to get an email address, and to get an email address, you often need a phone number today. The purpose of this is, again, to slow you down (and to track you to be honest). It only works well when emails are hard to get, i.e. in a centralized web where Google controls how hard it is to get an email account. If you could easily use your own email server, why would anyone believe you're not a bot?

The next one is the most relevant to Bitcoin:

AD BLOCK FILTERS are another form of spam prevention but this time the roles are reversed: you as a user fight against the spam from websites and advertising companies trying to invade your brain. Ad blocking works only under certain conditions: First you need to be able to "spell out" what the spam looks like, i.e. what the filter should filter out. Second, you need to update your filters every time someone circumvents them. Have you ever installed a youtube ad blocker and then noticed that it stops working after a few weeks? That's because you're playing cat-and-mouse with youtube. You block, they circumvent, you update your filters, repeat.

The fact that you need to update your filters is critical and that's where it ties back to Bitcoin: Suppose you have a mempool filter for transactions with a locktime of 21 because some stupid NFT project uses that. You maybe slow them down for a few weeks, but then they notice it and change their locktime to 22. You're back at zero, the spam filter doesn't work anymore. What do you do?

You update your filter! But where do you get your new filter from? You need a governing body, or some centralized entity that keeps updating these filters and you need to download their new rules every single day. That's what ad blockers in your web browser do. They trust a centralized authority to know what's best for you, and blindly accept their new filters. Every single day.

I hope you see the issue here. Nobody should even consider this idea of constantly updating filter rules in Bitcoin. This would give the filter providers a concerning level of power and trust. It would turn Bitcoin into a centrally planned system, the opposite of what makes Bitcoin special.

This is why filters do not work for decentralized anonymous systems. They require a central authority. Until now, these rules were determined by Bitcoin Core, but they have realized that these rules do not work anymore. Transactions bypass the filters easily and at some point, carrying them around became a burden to the node runners themselves. Imagine you're using an outdated ad blocker but instead of filtering out ads, it now also filters out legitimate content you might be interested in. That's what mempool filters do, and that's why Bitcoin Core is slowly relaxing these filters. This has been discussed for over two years, it's not a sudden decision.

The goal of this change is not to help transactions to slip through more easily. The goal is to improve your node's prediction of what is going to be in the next block. Most people misrepresent this part. They say "it's to turn Bitcoin into a shitcoin" but that is just a false statement at best, or a manipulation tactic at worst.

Let's tie it back to proof of work and why fees are the actual filter that keeps Bitcoin secure and prevents spam reasonably well: Satoshi realized that there is no technique that could slow down block production and prevent denial of service attacks in a decentralized system other than proof of work. Fees prevent you from filling blocks with an infinite number of transactions. All the other options would introduce some form of trust or open the door for censorship – nothing works other than proof of work.

He was smart enough to design a system where the proof of work that goes into block production is "minted" into the monetary unit of the system itself: You spend energy, you get sats (mining). This slows down block production. How do you slow down transactions within those blocks? You spend the sats themselves, original earned form block production, as fees for the transactions within the block!

This idea is truly genius and it's the only reason why Bitcoin can exist. All other attempts of creating decentralized money have failed to solve this step. Think about it: without knowing who you are, whether you're one person pretending to be a thousand, or a thousand people pretending to be one. Bitcoin defends itself (and anyone who runs nodes in the Bitcoin system) from spam by making you pay for your activity.

People sometimes counter this by saying: the economic demand for decentralized data storage is higher than the monetary use case. First of all, I think that's just wrong. There are way cheaper ways to store data (there are shitcoins for this), and the value of having decentralized neutral internet money is beyond comparison.

However, there's a much deeper concern here. If you truly believe this, I ask you: what is Bitcoin worth to you? If you think Bitcoin can't succeed as money (i.e. be competitive), why do you even care? If you're not willing to pay fees for the use case that we all believe Bitcoin is designed for (money), and you believe that no one is willing to pay for it, how can it even persist into the future?

You can't have it all. If Bitcoin is money (which I believe it is), then we need to pay the price to keep it alive. There is no free lunch.

Either we centralize, or we pay the price of decentralization. I know where I stand.

Peace.

Both sides are still talking past each other Calle… you wrote well and articulated Core’s argument but I have yet to see any engagement with the real concern here, namely that Core pushed through an unpopular and poorly understood product with worrisome defaults (whether they’re actually good or bad is not the question) and a stated intention to eliminate choice altogether in the near future.

Again, whether the concerns are justified or not is a separate matter. Most of us are not technical enough to understand. We just want civil debate so we can side with the people who seem most reasonable and sane. Core came across as arrogant and unwilling to listen while their supporters have engaged in ad hominem attacks and just generally compounded Core’s behavior.

Knots has, in many cases, come to appear cult-like. Mechanic’s key arguments seem lost in the whirlwind (Knots supporters have missed the nuance) and I don’t see Core supporters engaging with Mechanic’s logic. As he says, Core is arguing “filters don’t work” but Mechanic is not basing his argument on that point. He even agrees that Core is technically correct.

I and others just want to see a civilized discussion (like you’ve put forward here, Calle) that actually acknowledges the perspectives put forth by either side.

I think it’s both. It really did used to be easier for people in our society to agree on narrative and also, as you say, there was always a need to triangulate because indeed all information is partial

Agreed. But I think that no specific source is always reliable so it’s a lot more work than I feel like it used to be to decide on what is true. I think the best we can do nowadays is triangulate based on multiple sources after having made sure that they’re not all simply echoing one source

Well, I believe Charlie Kirk was a real person and that he was killed and I believe that killing was utterly wrong. Beyond that, it’s very hard to know what information can be trusted about the specifics of this event. With these high profile killings, everyone has an agenda and they’re either actively pushing it— perhaps with deliberate misinformation or at the very least they may be letting their bias influence their narrative so that they appear more confident than they really are when asserting what they claim to know