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Bitcoiner Rational optimist #AUStrich OpenSats Bitcoin Brisbane bitcoinbushbash@nostrplebs.com Honeybadger Noob Day Working on https://primal.net/EscapeHatch

Uninstall the centralised app and use the web browser which adds friction and removes “notifications”

.. and enjoy Nostr 🤝

Replying to Avatar Lyn Alden

I've had a similar outcome as mandrik, but with a somewhat different context. It's something I still think about a lot.

When I was an engineer/manager, I worked in person, and had a great social group there. After I left it, I became inherently remote-work based in my home office, which has a lot of advantages but also some social isolation-related challenges.

I then gradually drifted away from work-friends I knew for a decade. Between work and family, we just gradually could barely find time for a group lunch anymore. Actually it was more on their side than mine; they have longer commutes, children, etc.

And my US family is small and dispersed around the country. So aside from my husband, a lot of my social interaction is online and at events within the past few post-covid years. The big exception is the part of the year I spend in Egypt, where I am surrounded by in-person family and friends every day, but have less overall productivity (bad internet for starters, problematic time zone, plus it's also vacation time and social time).

And the most notable part of each year is when I come back to the US first to take care of things here, and my husband is still in Egypt for another month to finish taking care of things there, where I risk turning into a solo cat lady.

So that makes me really focus on genuine internet dynamics, treating people online similarly to how I treat them in real life, building real connections there, going to events to meet my "tribe" despite the travel hassle, etc.

It also has prioritized having children to me recently. I've been focusing on work, focusing on elder care, etc. Due to my starting point, I have been in the position of having to support a parent and then in-laws since my 20s, while also being a workaholic to reach the positions I've gotten to. For years I was simply too busy for anything else, but increasingly the next generation is an element of life I think about a lot.

nostr:note19mw0jrl49tl3zmrketchgm3kfluc96na26k5p4yk7tvg95eya23sazn0c7

Zero to One

- Magical

- beautiful

- terrifying

- fun

- exhausting

- rewarding

- life altering

- demanding

- bonding

Skin in the game of life ❤️

Replying to Avatar Jameson Lopp

We need the Darwin Awards back in a BIG way

Replying to Avatar Rusty Russell

First up, I want to recognize that this is an uncomfortable topic! Bitcoin is inevitably changing towards user-pays, and that's not all positive. But facts we don't like are still facts: can't engineer a solution if we can't think about the problems.

There are three kinds of bitcoiners.

A. Those who can afford any fee.

B. Those who can afford a UTXO, but not often.

C. Those who can't afford a UTXO.

Nobody worries about the A group (and in the early days, that was everyone). Obviously Lightning (my area!) caters to the B group, and we want it to be as large as possible. To do this we can (1) make lightning as resiliant as we can so onchain spends are rare, (2) make bitcoin as efficient as possible so we can cram as much as we can into what we have.

(1) Making lightning more resilient and reliable is engineering. Lots of people working on this, even before we get soft-forks which could help further.

(2) More efficiency has two benefits: obviously if your own onchain spends are 20% smaller, that's 20% cheaper. But if *everyone's* onchain spends are 20% smaller, that means fees are lower *for everyone* too (and it's non-linear). So we really care about all Bitcoin usage! Some things are obvious wins: Taproot so you can avoid even putting the script onchain in many cases, FROST so you can cram your 2 of 3 or other scheme into a single key and signature. We know we want to get more aggressive with sharing one signature across multiple inputs (Cross Input Signature Aggregation), but that needs a lot more research, and a soft-fork.

But even with all these, the math is clear: some people, even if you somehow gave them their wealth in a UTXO, it couldn't afford its own fees to spend. The C group is real. Spoiler alert: we don't have an answer for this! But let's look at some approaches people have tried.

Firstly, there are attempts to move these people into the B group: give them long enough that maybe fees will reach a point they can afford. This seems unlikely to me:

1. As fees increase everyone will start doing the work to take advantage of low fee times, and that itself means that low-fee times won't be so low.

2. These schemes tend to increase onchain footprints, so they need fees to drop a lot to overcome that (typical is 2x the transaction size, so you need fees to halve to gain anything).

3. If you really can't afford the fee, you probably also can't afford to wait.

4. You still haven't actually dealt with those who really, really can't afford the fees. Ever.

Another suggestion is that someone (e.g. a lightning service provider) will lock up funds which would cover fees, in case something goes wrong. This doesn't work economically, because nobody is paying $100 for a $5 user (not at scale), but it doesn't even work mathematically: the reason some people will have small UTXOs is because there are not enough sats for 10 billion people with any realistic distribution.

There are two basic approaches left:

1. Group people, so they fall into the B category (i.e. onchain tx is possible, but expensive).

2. Trust someone, but rely on incentives.

1. Grouping people is possible, but they need to work together if somenthing goes wrong. So grouping inside a community is probably better than grouping with randos.

For example, there are various tree-of-transaction schemes where you go onchain only if the coordinator fails/goes rogue, and how much it costs you depends on whether anyone near you in the tree pays to get themselves out. These are basically free if nothing goes wrong (one UTXO required for thousands of users!). But this is subject to ghettoization, where the coordinator makes sure all the C people are grouped together, knowing none of them can afford the transactions they need to get their funds back. It's particularly bad because the coordinator can insert its own fake "whales" to make it look like it's not ghettoized.

You can play with incentives here, too: more research needed. The details matter!

2. Relying on incentives.

As a simple example, lightning-connected e-cash mints. They can't rug individuals very easily, they have to rug everyone together (or go fractional and rug the last ones to exit). Maybe with enough anonymity and reputation, these would be Good Enough.

More ambitious would be a single UTXO held for multiple people by a coordinator. Can we make it so that if a coordinator is dishonest, you can force them to burn your funds? Maybe burn more than your funds (ie. a bond)? Won't get your money, but it aligns incentives so they're not motivated to rug you. The details here really matter!

There's a cute scheme which has been proposed where the coordinator pays a temporary bond, and asserts that they actually have everyone's signature to transfer the funds. If nobody challenges within a week, they get the bond back and the funds move. If someone challenges, all the signatures are put onchain, and if they're not all valid, the bond gets half-burned and half-given to the (successful) challenger. This is hard to make work, though. Someone needs to get the money to challenge (hard if you don't have the money in the first place, plus it's hard to prove to someone you *didn't* sign something!), and then make sure nobody gets the challenge bond before them (in particular, a dishonest coordinator, seeing the game is up, completes the successful challenge *themselves* and gets half their bond back), and make sure someone can't grief and delay the settlement indefinitely or bankrupt the coordinator.

More research needed, here, too.

Summary

A longer post than I had expected to write. And it's buried in the middle of a thread nobody will read. (I do this sometimes. I suck at marketing I guess!)

Sub-fee bitcoin amounts will have tradeoffs, involving trusting someone who has more money than you (at least, in someone's competence, even if their *financial* incentives can be made to match yours). This is difficult to build well, and not a very exciting thing to build today, so it hasn't really happened (custodial things are much, much easier!).

This is also a key reason I believe we need to make Bitcoin more expressive: if we can do *more* with our own UTXOs, we can build better solutions. And by "we" I mean "someone smarter than me" of course!

Feedback welcome!

This is excellent Rusty .. thanks 🙏

Holy smokin’ hashrate Batman

Two separate issues:

1. Freerider problem

Peeps uploading bulk (NSFW) content without contributing to the service; as others have noted, rate limiting (bandwidth /storage) for freebies is a tried and tested approach

2. Child abuse “porn”

Abhorrent content .. a thornier issue in the general context but the specific case here (and typically used by LE as justification for ) is universally decried.

So what would I seek to do if operating the service?

- ban the npub

- drop all content from that npub

.. and ..

- publish that the npub has been banned from the relay/service and the reason for the ban

But does this solve anything or does it create more problems?

Npubs can be auto-created and content can be auto-uploaded - so this could become a whack-a-mole problem .. partly addressable via rate limiting, but at scale, requiring scanning

But where does that lead?

Well, that then starts to suggest that the relays are responsible for content uploaded by unknown people/orgs/bots .. and “bad” content will vary wildly depending upon where that operator resides .. the internet is global.. a basic fact many jurisdictions are still having trouble getting their heads around even after 30+ years

The concept of a published banlist though makes the filtering/censoring explicit and transparent

Relays/services that want to filter/exclude could subscribe to such lists and auto exclude .. but ..

This brings us back to who to trust for such exclusions .. and the core problem of centralised authorities or established webs of trust

Thorny problem but Nostr has the potential to offer alternative approaches to the behind-closed-doors censorship we’ve all observed on the common centralised platforms

nostr:note16d8fpxtqeunve8yn74ug576cvwcva06ywa5gs3w0xkdgdede6s4qg83kzs

“.. good stewardship of infrastructure requires the foresight of innovation ..”

Working in Public, Nadia Eghbal

Bangkok here we come 🔥🔥🔥

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Ways to contribute

As nostr:npub1y67n93njx27lzmg9ua37ce7csvq4awvl6ynfqffzfssvdn7mq9vqlhq62h says, there are many many ways to make meaningful contributions to FOSS ..

.. it’s taken me many years to find where i can add some value; when you get to the point of wanting to contribute, look around as there are many ways, many projects, and many skills that can help

.. be patient, participate, learn and teach and your place, your role, your ikigai, will emerge

Look forward to seeing you next month nostr:npub1y67n93njx27lzmg9ua37ce7csvq4awvl6ynfqffzfssvdn7mq9vqlhq62h and thank you for all you’ve done to help foster Nostr and Bitcoin 🧡

nostr:note166uhe4kjv7u56n5nu8x0uqspanhg8dmspvj6qygv0j69laa7h83qful3m9

True in 1994

Still true today

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tfw you’ve built the best open source transaction explorer on the planet, but Google offers you $23B so you can buy more 🌽

nostr:npub1uvl7vhclmezvdhqha6eclkksln40rjhgwgsggvew683jf93fr4pq3mq3sd nostr:npub18d4r6wanxkyrdfjdrjqzj2ukua5cas669ew2g5w7lf4a8te7awzqey6lt3

"I've just discovered Nostr, and I'm here to fix it" 🤡

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