Nostr Web Client

"what's happening on nostr with zaps is the largest at scale implementation of internet magic money" nostr:npub1sg6plzptd64u62a878hep2kev88swjh3tw00gjsfl8f237lmu63q0uf63m

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

I just want to point out something that should be obvious to everyone here. Most people outside our bubble don’t know how to use ”magic internet money,” and the only way to change that is to patiently show them, usually in person.

Last night at nostr:nprofile1qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3uamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3dwp6kytnhv4kxcmmjv3jhytnwv46z7qpqkey55ax33gkl50uqemvl4khrtqrhzm7wzpc7fhseutt5ddkcwcrqs99vkl , I was helping people make donations to nostr:nprofile1qyf8wumn8ghj7cnfw3ehgctrdvhxzursqythwumn8ghj7cmp9ehhyctwvajhq6tvdshxgetkqqs0rxy6jmt44guxkny8z4pkym9mxckqxfytygxuntjn6l80hj409sggjrzcm for a signed copy of a book by Evan Mawarire, who himself is still early in his bitcoin journey.

Here are some of the problems I observed:

One person tried to pay a Lightning address with Muun wallet, asking me why the QR code wouldn’t scan. Muun still does not support LNURLp after all this time. I suggested checking out the new Misty Breez wallet, but he didn’t have TestFlight installed, so I invited him to come back next week during our Lightning meetup to learn more, and showed him how to get an invoice from HRF’s BTCPay Server.

Another one only had BlueWallet with on-chain funds, and had never used Lightning before. I asked him why and he said it was because it didn’t work in BlueWallet. This is a fair point, because BlueWallet has never adopted NWC, and using LNDHub is a clunky and frustrating process. It’s almost as if the developers of earlier-generation wallets have just given up on advancing the tech and UX.

A third person tried to scan the QR code for the Lightning address, and it only opened up her email app. I asked if she had a Lightning wallet, and she said she didn’t use bitcoin at all, so I sent her to the page to make a donation by debit card.

So that’s kind of the state of things, at least from my perspective. I see these sorts of things every day. Whether it’s people trying to pay a Lightning invoice with an on-chain wallet, or even from an exchange, or trying to onboard to a custodial service in New York, where companies like Cash App and Strike can’t provide some or all services, because we’re thrown into the same bucket as Iran and North Korea.

In all this, #Nostr is a tiny island. It’s very sunny and warm here, but most of the world doesn’t know we exist, or how to find us. ☀️🏝️

nostr:note1pvt4dt980kdxwgqxsu9h52hh4uz2mxl55dnh6l6dw9wc8rjufusq8lqrrm

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Discussion

zach 9mo ago

Maybe we should all learn more patience so we can be ready to show those who are interested when the time comes.

zach 9mo ago

Speaking for myself maybe, because I have had trouble being patient and going slow when it comes to this.

zeph 9mo ago

tbh I use lightning here all the time and it’s still pretty mysterious to me how it works and what the wallets I use are doing

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

Fair point! What do you want to learn about? We created the nostr:npub1hxfkcs9gvtm49702rmwn2aeuvhkd2w6f0svm4sl84g8glhzx5u9srk5p6t group for this.

zeph 9mo ago

I guess I hear about channels force closing and how it’s experimental tech, and I’m nervous to try to manage liquidity and channels with any substantial funds, and I don’t really know how safe it is for long term use. I need to study more and will check out the group.

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

There are a lot more options available today than there were in the beginning of 2023 when we started. Managing liquidity is hard, and isn’t for everyone. There are ways around it, all depending on how you want to interact with the network. See you there!

BTCbeeRancher 9mo ago

I’m joining too. Have a BTC node running, and been playing with a lightning node on my homemade Start9, well, made with a friend’s help. Tried AlbyHub, but don’t use it often enough I guess so one direction got force closed

Sai 9mo ago

Dude the blue wallet lndhub shit cost me 2k. Sad panda. Ln bits.

I’m glad you’re around. I like your style son.

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

I have no idea how many people got rekt on BlueWallet’s LNDHub when they shut down. I would be very interested to see the stats, because I bet a lot of folks in the developing world got hit pretty hard by that. BlueWallet was one of the top wallets recommended to people in 2021-2022, but it was fully custodial for Lightning, and I’m not sure how many people even realized that.

They shut down in the first quarter of 2023, probably because of #zaps. They weren’t prepared for that kind of traffic and I think it really spooked them.

Evan Baer 9mo ago

100% this

It is especially hard in New York (thanks Bitlicense)

Evan Baer 9mo ago

100% this

It is especially hard in New York (thanks Bitlicense)

jamw 9mo ago

I had this problem showing people how to set up their email. Then Hotmail and Gmail turned up.

Deleted Account 9mo ago

Yeah still a lot of improvement to be made to make it smooth and functional as payments. Person to person is the way. I am about to give 2 seed phrases out to 2 friends baby showers, loaded with $100 bitcoin each. Orange pill one at a time!

Galaxie 5000 9mo ago

Strike makes it so easy…New York is just being so dumb.

Ronin 9mo ago

the fact that many wallets dont do business in US/NY shows a bit how LN is hard for many, Strike, WoS, Phoenix make this easy but they dont operate there. what about Zeus?

ZEUS 9mo ago

Yep, we operate across the US.

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 9mo ago

When the whole wallet debacle was happening, Zeus was basically the only one who stood their ground while everyone else pussed out.

ZEUS 9mo ago

Thank you for ‘membering

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

I keep a list of wallets that I’ve tested at the bar. This isn’t exhaustive, it’s just ones that I can speak from experience about.

The next print of this will feature the new nostr:npub1jugar2agq6369p0l86razavs9shj2p6pscxecevs8j94ap37hkqsjlfc28 wallet Misty Breez.

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

Would be cool if I also posted a picture of the actual list.

David Coen 9mo ago

The problem is being a liquidity provider.

Not just for the infrastructure and the rebalance, but because as a centralized identity, you are an easy target for the state.

If they decide you are a money transmitter, then good luck.

That's why we need distributed liquidity and possibly separate the service operator from the liquidity providers.

For onboarding, the issue is definitely channel creation.

We may be able to solve this with Ark.

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

I’ve heard a bit about Ark and VTXOs over the past year or so but until there’s an implementation we can put to the test, it’s just theoretical.

I’ll be a fan of whatever works best to scale bitcoin with least compromises. Some people consider the Liquid network to be centralized and shitcoiny, and I had barely used it until recently, but now it’s been integrated into Breez SDK and is turning out to be a brilliant solution for nodeless Lightning settlement.

When I first joined Nostr in 2022, most people were using Wallet of Satoshi, which concerned me due to it being custodial and centralized, and I knew that had the potential to end badly. No surprise, it did!

As a node runner, I thought it would be important to try to find as many other node runners as possible here, and help teach others to do the same. This turned into a group of a few hundred who provide liquidity to each other. This is one way to keep liquidity distributed as you say, and reduce centralization risk.

I saw in your profile that you work at Edge wallet. I used to use that back when it was called Airbitz. I don’t use it anymore because I have no need for a crypto wallet, and especially one that doesn’t support Lightning, but it’s definitely one I remember well. Say hello to Paul for me. 🤙

David Coen 9mo ago

Hey Daniel, I'll do!

We currently don't support lightning, that's true.

I'm a Lightning early adopter so you can clearly understand how much I want to use Edge to make LN payments.

Unfortunately we are not still ready for that, for a few reasons:

Onboarding would be difficult for the majority of our user base

Hard for them to manage liquidity (the current SDK options do not support splicing yet, as far as I know)

Success rate of payments (it's actually improved a lot lately, so that might not be a big issue anymore!)

In the meantime, I use Breez and Phoenix wallet.

As for Ark, it's no longer theoretical. There are a couple of implementations currently in development, check ArkLabs and Second.

They are in testnet, and probably out in mainnet later this year.

Roy 9mo ago

David, all these issues are resolved with our Nodeless SDK. There's no liquidity management. Edge is focused on trading, not payments and Paul doesn't believe in Lightning. While Ark is promising, it is theoretical because no one understands the economic model of running an Ark at scale.

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

This is exactly why I don’t use Edge. I am not a trader, and I am allergic to shitcoins. But if your founder “doesn’t believe” in Lightning, my guess is he hasn’t taken a good look at it in a long time. You should invite him here to see zaps working at scale, and maybe get him on a call with the Breez team.

Roy 9mo ago

Let's say that the last time I spoke with Paul about Lightning he was very skeptical. It's up to us to prove him wrong. Since then we've also released our nodeless SDK. nostr:npub149mp2m0q8prpdys7x2lusv2vceraxwzr4ajf6tv3l24my3gtszxsncas0t take a look a Misty Breez and lmk what you think.

Rizful.com (zap tester) 9mo ago

We did some zap tests on this note… we made six attempts to⚡zap this note, at roys@breez.fun, over a period of 20 minutes. In each case, we found that your lightning address server did not respond correctly. (The failure point was when we did a GET request to your specified callback URL: https://breez.fun/lnurlpay/roys/invoice.) Your server did not produce an invoice, thus the zap failed. We recommend that you use a cloud-based Lightning node which is optimized for Nostr zaps, to get your zaps working.

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

What amount did you test with?

Misty Breez currently has a 1000 sat minimum, but I’m hearing that will be reduced significantly soon.

Rizful.com 9mo ago

We tested 1 satoshi payments. I just zapped you one satoshi now. It might have been a temporary/intermittent issue ...?

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

Your zap to me worked because I’m using my own node. The one to nostr:npub1ey6qdmvzcgcsr883m9nspzz0mm037l26xtardzcskfsvc6gc7jssm9szvp using Misty Breez would not have generated an invoice because it was too low to accept.

David Coen 9mo ago

I don't think it's a matter of "believing in Lightning".

Paul is a bit skeptical about reliability and has self-custody as a priority, that's why we strongly opposed previous lightning solutions that were custodial.

I respect his point of view.

Edge remains open source, so PRs are very welcome.

Also, you don't need to use shitcoins it you use Edge! Imagine your edge account as a client-side encrypted package where you can collect seed phrases (aka wallets) and maybe in the future ever more things.

You can have Bitcoin-only accounts with as many Bitcoin wallets as you wish.

That's how I use my accounts.

The Daniel 🖖 9mo ago

That’s fine. I’ve moved on to using bitcoin-only wallets. And I agree with the custodial criticism. Exodus just ditched Wallet of Satoshi probably for the same reason. That said, I hope you guys will take a new look at newer technologies that have emerged in the last two years including what Breez is doing with the SDK and Alby with NWC. Both of those are geared toward self custody.

David Coen 9mo ago

Totally!

BitBees 9mo ago

So zappable ⚡️⚡️⚡️

Rizful.com (zap tester) 9mo ago

Testing zap receipts for this note… we made six attempts to⚡zap this note, at pay@davidcoen.it, over a period of 9 minutes. Six of the zaps were successfully paid... Please check for 6 satoshis received. Problem: we found that your lightning address server **did not** produce any zap receipts. This means that nobody else could see see that you got zapped... no number appears next to the ⚡icon after zapping.... also FYI... your server at davidcoen.it is responsible for creating your zap invoices, and we found that it responded slowly... invoice generation took an average of 5308ms (5.3 seconds). We consider this slow... generally, zap invoices should be created in under one second. We recommend that you use a cloud-based Lightning node to get more reliable zaps.

Roy 9mo ago

If LSPs are a target, so would ASPs.

David Coen 9mo ago

Yes, that's why I think we should work on sharing liquidity management.

David Coen 9mo ago

Also nostr:nprofile1qqsvjdqxakpvyvgpnncajecq3p8aahcl04dr973k3vgtycxvdyv0fggpzemhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejz7qgcwaehxw309ahx7um5wghxvmt59emkj73wvf5h5tcpremhxue69uhkummnw3ez6ur4vgh8wetvd3hhyer9wghxuet59u9athfh the reply was for nostr:nprofile1qqsg4mm4egn67q9x7uxpfpj6u55xpnxux685vjvu0nmtydftpxnsnagppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qydhwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnwdaehgunsd3jkyuewvdhk6tcpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn9w3ehgu3wd9hj7smk9pr's comment, not for the main post by Daniel.

Ps: I saw the recorded event with Bitpolito. You were great. Too bad I wasn't aware of that, I live a few km from there, it would have been an occasion to meet in person :-( !

losefriends 9mo ago

Don't get people involved in crypto. It's a scam, pure speculation, and it could cost people their savings