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Its also possible to engage in a ritual knowing that it does nothing, but benefitting from doing it because it makes light of the mundane course. In that case, the object is not an idol, despite performing some outwardly questionable ritual.

On the other hand, to view all instances of "xyz" as idolatry without regard to the inner state of the person **_is itself idolatry_** - because such a judgement mistakenly places more importance in the material than the spiritual. This is why I say that modern Christians are idolaters. In every instance, they are incorrectly judging and assigning importance to material things, even while mouthing about "materialism is bad" or whatever - even their criticism of materialism is itself materialism, because its surface level and unaware of the "unseen world," which used to be a pretty big deal in Christianity, but now seems to be forgotten.

Rush 5mo ago

I don't know about Christians, not one. So, you might be write with your example, I wouldn't know. But here is what I know, belief is what matters. Deep inside does this person believe that this object can have a metaphysical effect on you? That's idolatry. No one can know your beliefs truly except you and God; even then God knows your own belief better than you do. At least, that's what we Muslims believe.

So, in a way, I agree with you not all idolatry actions are necessarily idolatry; but all idolatry actions that are driven by belief are idolatry. That's a very important qualifier. A clear example is forcing someone to bow to an object. Deep inside they might hate it, but they have to bow to save themselves.

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Comte de Sats Germain 5mo ago

Sorry - I made an assumption, which was that I was talking to a Christian. Usually I'm arguing with Christians. Well, this is good. I like Muslims.

It sounds like we're basically in agreement. I'm saying the shape of the belief is the image, and I'm saying that the person can be an image of God, or an image of some other belief, but can't be both. The idol is in the person, and **_could be_** an object, but still would have to be in the person first. An object may have metaphysical significance to one person and be an utterly meaningless lump of matter to another. So where's the idol? Its in the person.

Even that's still not quite right - I think it mostly works, but even if you give metaphysical importance to an object, it could still not be an idol, if you understand that its still no more "real" than any other materialist beliefs, and even if there are some tangible effects. If you net out the 'this way' and 'that way' of it, I think the result is that physical idols are just stupid, but I'm trying to make that nuanced point because I think its wrong to assume an object is an idol. Like you said, only God knows your heart.

But I'm surprised... I once saw a video of a scholar of Islam saying its not belief that matters, but actions. Isn't that the position of Islam?

Rush 5mo ago

You hit the nail on the head.

But let me check a different angle with you. Someone who sees a Buddha statue and reacts in a way that shows reverence, even if said person is absolutely not a Buddhist. That's idolatry behavior, even if he believes it's a false God. Why? Because a Buddha is known to be worshipped. Which makes it a little more nuanced. Don't you agree?

Might I add, as well, that in the Qur'an there is a verse that there are people who worship their desires, many scholars take it as it means atheists. So, yes you're right, it's not just material things that are worshiped, even oneselves are worshipped.

I'm not sure what scholar you're talking about, and I don't want to slander someone I don't know, but the way I understand Islam is in its holistic approach to life. Everything matters in Islam, belief, actions, society, politics... Etc. Having said that, you always always start with belief. Anyone who knows Islamic history knows that theology is a major part of it. If you miss that first step, belief, all your actions might be as good as meaningless. Would you please link me to the video if you have it?

Comte de Sats Germain 5mo ago

Oh I wish I could remember... I saw that a couple of years ago. Your explanation makes sense, though, and I probably misunderstood him to begin with.

I don't think atheists necessarily worship their desires, but some subset surely do. Hedonistic atheists. But I can imagine an atheist being an ascetic, too. I've never seen that, but it doesn't seem impossible.

Rush 5mo ago

No worries. I'm glad to be of help.

Yeha hedonistic atheists and others too. The point was that idolatry doesn't have to be directed to a mute object; in agreement with some point you were saying.

Hey.. Look at us, agreeing in stuff. If only Muslims and Christians at large realize that they're not enemies, and the real enemy loves the historic division and sows evil right around the cracks.

Comte de Sats Germain 5mo ago

Agreed! So that's twice. A lot of propaganda is directed at keeping Muslims and Christians in a state of division. Well... We can lead by example.