So badically you're saying if you change your IP often, you have perfect privacy and nothing can be improved further?
I know that's not true but I do wonder how you would end up with that opinion.
Discussion
Huh? No? I’m saying the privacy issues with pools are not solved by adding an ecash intermediary. One of those issues is IPs, but I list other issues too:)
So you agree that ecash payouts improve privacy.
Please go reread my note?
I don't get the argument. Accounting software keeps track of everyone's balance. This doesn't have anything to do with LN or bolt12 or whatever. You have an account, then you withdraw (with whatever payment method you like).
We can get rid of the accounting using ecash.
(a) you’re drastically overthinking the complexity of accounting here - it’s like the simplest possible Postgres DB? (b) users want actual features which require more tracking, which is where the complexity lies, nostr:nevent1qqs88h9gh45wrzdhkgmt99zqlqzgnmelp4063rxfp0xtxr4spdawexcpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujucm4wfex2mn59en8j6gpzamhxue69uhkummnw3ezuendwsh8w6t69e3xj7spz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdue7exlp
I've built accounting software for years, I know what I'm talking about. I thought we're talking about privacy right now.
So do you agree that ecash improves privacy compared to accounting software tracking every miner's balance?
Wait you’re the one who changed the topic? You said something about privacy, I said “go reread my note, I explained it” then you jumped to “accounting is hard”. No, ecash for mining pools does not materially improve privacy. Also, no, ecash for mining pools does not materially change the actual share accounting that has to happen as most of it is unrelated to the money itself.
Scroll up, I've been talking about privacy the entire thread, It's you bringing up complexity, not me.
I really just asked a simple question: does ecash improve privacy compared to ordinary accounting?
It does, in a very simple way.
The practical privacy issues in pools are not addressed, at all, by using ecash. This goes both for payouts (as ecash tokens have to be turned into Bitcoin) and IP privacy issues. Worse, other features pools are expected to offer today make for absolutely zero practical change to pool operation even if you use ecash!
But also, uhhhh, you definitely weren’t talking about privacy here, you changed the topic 🤷♂️ nostr:nevent1qqsdtzt4pst8j0plrrv5qm5u8awyp5aap4375jfct7f4dcdxhmsu5qskl3kxx
I asked you a simple question, you're not answering it. Of course, ecash privacy is better than normal accounting.
You might be imagining some elaborate ecash scheme or something. This is not that. The pool can do whatever it's doing right now but just get rid of accounts. It's simple and there are practically zero compromises.
If you don't know what the idea is about, I'm happy to explain it in a call. I'm sure you'll understand better where I'm coming from.
I totally understand your argument here but you didn’t address any of my points - (a) this isn’t actually practical because no one would use such a pool, (b) this doesn’t solve the IP-level privacy issues (which are the biggest issues for privacy on a pool by farrrrr!), (c) this doesn’t actually improve payout privacy since there’s a privacy loss when the user goes to (bulk) withdraw (basically the privacy ends up being the same as just doing lightning withdraws from the pool!)
I'm going to address only (c), I hope that's fine.
Think about OCEAN. They have bolt12 payouts. In order to use that, you just register your offer with them. Every share you submit is linked to that offer. They will try to pay you right away but if your node is offline, they simply write to the DB that this specific offer has made. Say 250k sats since the last payout. They MUST track whichiner has earned how much reward. There is no basically other way.
Except! If each miner receives ecash instead of that db entry, the miner can withdraw to a bolt12 offer of any wallet they want without ever having to register it. The miner doesn't need an account. It doesn't need accounting either. The pool simply issues ecash for valid work and miners withdraw whenever they like to whatever destination they like. There is no way to link *THE SUBMITTED SHARES* to the withdrawal if done right. That's simply not possible with ordinary accounting.
To (b), yes thats right but it's also trivial to fix using VPNs... It's not part of the problem I care about.
Indeed, OCEAN’s approach leaves a long trail in the DB. I addressed this a bit more in the note below, but I think in practice the (bulk) withdraw you’d do with ecash would end up having similar privacy issues as today’s approach. You obviously can’t withdraw each single sat by itself (the fees would dominate, even on lightning), so you bulk-withdraw in batches. You’d have to have every user have the same bulk-withdraw randomization logic, with fresh BOLT12 (or different ecash mints) to withdraw to each time (otherwise you’d have clear fingerprints in the withdraw batches). And even then I’d bet with enough BOLT 12 blinded paths you’d be able to cluster most withdraws :/.
This just isn’t as simple as you’re thinking. I agree there’s a world where on an extreme margin this could improve privacy, but it’s a really tiny margin and a pool motivated to go look would probably be able to see through almost all of it :/
If everyone withdraws every time, privacy gain is minimal. But (despite the obvious risk of a rug pull) using your ecash mining funds as a regular wallet to pay *other* things is a win. There's already something of a trust relationship, I guess
BTW, nostr:npub12rv5lskctqxxs2c8rf2zlzc7xx3qpvzs3w4etgemauy9thegr43sf485vg is there a standard way/protocol for a mint to announce a shutdown schedule? So wallets can (ideally automatically) move funds off?
Sadly ehash tokens aren’t bitcoin, they’re a floating amount of bitcoin which depends on the specific epoch they were mined in (and their value is generally determined a day or so after they were minted, at least with todays payout schemes). They’re not really great to pay with (and I’m not sure a pool would ever want to allow transfer of the ehash tokens for regulatory reasons to begin with…)
This would also depend on the anonymity set. If many shares have the same reward, they should be indistinguishable. One could argue that the whole point about accounting is to delay withdrawals, so it's harder and harder for the mint to correlate your payments.
To your second point: this was just very recently proposed and we are going to add an expiry date to each keyset so that wallets know when to rotate out into a new keyset or withdraw from the mint at an announced date.
with all due respect nostr:npub12rv5lskctqxxs2c8rf2zlzc7xx3qpvzs3w4etgemauy9thegr43sf485vg, Matt Corallo is a ridiculous clown. Your life energy and talent are better spent elsewhere.