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Sourdough thoughts:

The time from "start autolyse" to "dough spreads out and won't hold structure anymore" is a fixed window, based on protease breakdown of gluten, making it more extensible but leading to overproof. You can overproof your bread even before you add starter!!! since it is the protease activity causing this.

The time window from "add starter" to "bread has risen" must fit within the time window I just mentioned. Otherwise it will overproof before it has fully risen.

To be safe (easy mode), don't autolyse. Add the starter when the flour first gets wet.

I have been working with a new flour, and it goes from wet to flat in about 8 hours. So I have to skip the autolyze and innoculate it with a lot of starter in order for the bread to fully rise safely within that period of time.

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🇰 🇷 🇾 🇵 🇹 🇮 🇽 1y ago

Lost me...i keep it simple. Never fails.

Deleted Account 1y ago

Mix all ingredients except salt, rest 40 minutes, mix in salt with a little water, do turn and fold method every 30 minutes, 5 times. Make into a ball, proof 20 minutes, shape, put into basket then refrigerate overnight.

Take it out of refrigerator about an hour before baking. This never fails makes the perfect loaf.

Mike Dilger ☑️ 1y ago

I have recipes that never fail. I'm trying to experiment and to understand where the boundaries are.

Deleted Account 1y ago

I get it. I do the same.

Deleted Account 1y ago

Have you played with temperature. I use to autolyse my multigrain breads up to 12 hrs in the fridge. Doesn’t moisture also have an effect? If I remember correctly my autolyse for the whole grain breads would be the consistency of almost a brick.

Mike Dilger ☑️ 1y ago

I've done bread in the fridge a lot, but not whole grain yet. And I'm curious how the temperature affects the speed of the gluten breakdown versus the speed of the fermentation... I assume they both slow down the same, but that might not be right.

My next experiments will be with spelt though, because I seem to have a bit of a wheat sensitivity.

JeffG 1y ago

I've never done checks with my normal flour to know how long until it's completely flat but I'd assume that fermenting cold (overnight in the fridge) would also slow down autolyse, right?

Mike Dilger ☑️ 1y ago

Yes probably. Cold slows everything down. But I don't know which slows down more.

Also, having dug a bit deeper, the bacteria also break down the glutin network. So "overfermenting" is still also a way to flatten your bread. It's not just protease activity.

I just did 100% spelt loaves, using a much larger 15% starter innoculation so it would happen faster (to ensure protease isn't the problem) and at about 150% rise (alloquat jar test) I shaped and did a very short 30 minute proof before baking, no refrigration. The first loaf was overproofed already, the second loaf (35 minutes later) was flat (but airy enough to be totally edible, just flat with no ears).

Even though spelt has more protein than wheat, I can't get a good well developed strong dough with spelt. The dough is just very soft. Quite a tricky flour.

Next time I'll just proof and bake sooner, and also lower the hydration (I got a tip that spelt doesn't work at high hydrations like wheat does).

JeffG 1y ago

I’ve definitely over proofed before, always a fine balance. I’ve also noticed that if you go too high with starter you actually end up with weaker dough. I guess because the starter has already had all its gluten consumed?

To be honest the thing I have always found to make the most difference is time and manner in which the dough is worked to develop gluten.

Mike Dilger ☑️ 1y ago

I hear you on too much starter. Maybe I was totally wrong about the protease, and adding more starter made it worse.

I couldn't seem to work this dough. I mean, I did, but it didn't improve. I did slap-and-folds and it just wanted to tear. So I let it rest and did it again. Quite a few times and it never really got close to passing a window pane test. Maybe it's because home-ground flour isn't fine enough. Maybe spelt gluten isn't strong enough. I dunno.

This is all so easy with bread flour.

pjv 1y ago

Here are a couple worthwhile posts on baking (mainly wholegrain) bread with sourdough starter:

https://breadtopia.com/demystifying-sourdough-bread-baking/

https://breadtopia.com/slow-lazy-sourdough-bread/

Mike Dilger ☑️ 1y ago

TIL that if you mill your own flour at home, then you must use it right away. After a day or two it becomes 'unworkable' and then you need to age it (oxidize it) for 2-4 weeks to make it workable again. Professional flour mills chemically age or "bleach" the flours to save time, but "unbleached flour" is essentially just flour that was allowed to age/oxidize naturally without chemicals as a means of stabilization. Aged flours have better extensibility and better gluten properties, as well as being a more consistent product.

The reason I was having problems is probably because I was using home milled flour that was 3-4 days old 🤦. I had no idea.