Replying to Avatar Rico

What is the moment when we leave the early days? Big user inflow won't happen with the state of things but the status quo won't change if there is no organic demand for quality.

I can't celebrate progress for progress sake. So many basic functions are still not working, those I mentioned are the most notorious, while more and more weird functions are being implemented on top. Sometimes it looks to me like some people try to reinvent the wheel.

I wouldn't compare the speed or effectiveness of nostr development to neither bitcoin or email, it's happening a different era with never before seen possibilities of collaboration, funding, computation, network infrastructure, talent acquisition, distribution and urgency.

I do see the enormous potential and readiness to get going but also no common goal, maximum fragmentation, and no obligation to deliver quality or finish anything. That's the curse of FOSS of course, there's no quality controla and no financial incentive, only ideological drive which pays no one's rent, and when I point out the flaws all I hear is 'well do it yourself' and 'it's free you shouldn't complain'.

The free relay model needs to end sooner than later, there is no free lunch, to pretend there is just prolongs the catastrophe.

I pay for an Instagram grade nostr client, immediately and double digits. But I pay for the product not the promise. For now, when I on board people, its exactly this: it's early man, don't take it to heart, it's all a bit weird, weirdstr we say, but one day, with or without you, it will be better!

Will, I wish one day you make the money you deserve for all the work you put in. Make it good, make us pay

There is a far bigger problem than what you have highlighted: People are building so many crazy-idea apps on top of a fundamental nostr layer which still has problems and still needs breaking changes. And now that they have, if we break those fundamentals everybody's houses of cards fall down. And so IMHO all the rapid adoption is the thing that will probably kill nostr. Far too much built on top of a still flimsy foundation that is now unable to be fixed. I wrestle with this dilemma in my dreams at night, tossing and turning, considering all the ways to make subkeys happen and how every single one breaks something deeply, etc.

The issues in your OP are smallish bug/features that can very easily be solved by comparison. Amethyst can become less complicated (by automating things or something I dunno), and can add ability to tag somebody, and primal can add ability to block somebody. These are stupid simple problems that just haven't happened yet. I think your expectations of how things should already be are very high.

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Somewhat agree with this. I'd be interested in a few bullet points for what you consider the most important breaking changes that are needed.

First, I shouldn't have said "need" that is too strong of a word. Nostr can keep going without breaking changes.

And in part I'm speaking in the abstract based on experience, based on the number of breaking changes that have happened so far and their approximate rate.

But I think some of the big things below app level are subkeys (for an offline masterkey) through something like a slightly modified NIP-26, binary events over websocket binary, something like negative filters or negentropy (specifics to be worked out), some kind of better relay usage for the many basic usages that actually exist (Vitor is working on that), ... that is off the top of my head.

Yeah, I had a similar list in mind. Subkeys and key management/rollover in general being the elephant in the room, because you kind of need to break some things there, as everything is currently operating under the assumption that keys are not just identifiers, but identities.

I guess there's just a lot of defiance, because it's a big "I told you so" to stomach.

OK here's your list, I just found it, nevermind my previous comment.

Break it all now

Developers, users, we're all early adopters

Things breaking comes with the territory

And those were our choices

Rn the network is entirely ppl with faith and passion for the protocol

Ppl who can bear the pain of things breaking for a better future

Choices

1) break things now

2) break things later when nostr has millions of daily users and functional business models

3) set a broken protocol in stone forever and ever

"broken protocol" is a huge exaggeration

I'm just one guy with one eccentric view on this that I probably overstated. But yes I think we are breaking it now, little by little at least.

I 100% agree with "break things now"

Is there a list of the protocol-level bugs out there? Do you have a list or do you have the time to write one down? Getting it out of your system also might help with the nightmares 😊

Yes I talked specifically about the on boarding and user experience, looking top down, outside in. I wish for the client devs to focus on the core business, to get the basics perfectly right before moving on to the funky stuff.

👉 Dear devs, learn and copy from those who have invested billions and decades of research in designing their addictive apps. Stand on Facebooks shoulders and grow even taller, there's nothing wrong about it. The Instagram UI is perfect, every teenage girl can use it and they do.

Looking at Primal for example: It features a big lighting symbol front and center, that's not a social media app, it is a Bitcoin wallet with social functions.