not sure bitcoin needs it, but these things are nice to have
Discussion
Without this Bitcoin is worth nothing.
the market disagrees
Yeah you're right and it's a major problem for Bitcoin. The whole value proposition is a p2p digital means of exchange that is decentralized and permissionless. All of those aspects are under attack and are decreasing drastically in favor of the state approved custodial store of value use case.
As custodial store of value, Bitcoin has major counterparty risk to both the custodian and the regulatory environment. It places its "value" completely at the whim of speculative narrative, price manipulation, and regulation.
Just as I find fiat extremely risky long term, I'm quickly finding Bitcoin is gaining those similar risks.
i value freedom of choice highly. that means everyone should use bitcoin the way they think is right for them. if you think it is too risky, you don't have to use it. you can point out why it is better to use it privately, p2p and so on, but everyone has to decide for themself. humans are in general lazy and prefer the easy way, which often isn't the better way
Problem is that as the state tightens it's grip on nonKYC p2p usage it will bifurcate the UTXO pool creating more "tainted" coins that people can't use on exchanges. We see this already with whirlpool coinjoins, you can't sell them on exchanges without shotgun KYC or at all sometimes. That also means any merchant who is using a crypto to fiat payment processor won't accept them without shotgun KYC. It's clear with the Samurai wallet prosecution that they're coming for all self-custodial, private Bitcoin usage.
Lightning alleviates this a lot but has terrible reliability and UX if setting up in a private self custodial manner. So much so that almost everyone uses it custodially which only creates problems as I've shown before.
Your holdings are in danger, if the regulatory environment changes such that your non-KYC stack cannot be sold in exchanges at all, even with good accounting and shotgun KYC, you'll be left with a bag with no buyer. You could sell for cash on Bisq or trade for Monero on Retoswap, but it's not unlikely that p2p liquidity will dry up at that point since people trade Monero for Bitcoin mainly to cash out large amounts of Bitcoin on exchanges.
no one can stop me from paying my rent in bitcoin. i focus on building a circular economy. maybe use something like nostr:npub1mftv2j67vayavkks8rqev3u8jjhefe86tf80msstfxvpunk9vmps6prkl3 if you need to exchange bitcoin ↔ fiat instead of spending it. the rest is noise
Whoever you're renting from has complete control whether or not you can pay your rent in Bitcoin. I brought up Bisq and Retoswap you've completely ignored that counterargument.
the landlord has always complete control on what money he accepts for payment. if i need fiat i just exchange with a friend / use vexl
sorry i don't understand your counterargument, i don't know one person that uses any other cryptocurrency than bitcoin in real life. please explain
xmrbazaar.com + darknet markets for real world usage.
Bisq is the Bitcoin only predecessor to vexl. You presented vexl as a counterargument but I already brought up Bisq which serves the same purpose.
vexl connects friends or friends of friends to exchange bitcoin for cash or the other way around in the real world. your argument is that p2p liquidity will dry up because people use monero? if not, tell me your argument again, i can't follow
No, the argument is that p2p Bitcoin liquidity will dry up if nonKYC usage is attacked by regulation similar to how OFAC sanctions apply to coinjoins now. I propose that if the current regulatory development continues, all non-KYC usage will be under attack. This is why Monero is delisted from most exchanges while ZCash and Litecoin are on most exchanges. The transparent chain allows separation of "tainted" funds and "clean" funds. Monero has no such ability to be distinguished between thus its immune from this fate.
Current evidence of this is that some exchanges like Binance will not accept ZCash UTXOs that have ever touched the shielded pool. Currently no central exchanges accept Bitcoin UTXOs linked to OFAC sanctioned addresses. If you coinjoin with one of these your non-KYC coin is now "tainted" and thus has less value due to its lower liquidity.
Does this argument follow? I'm stretching the limit of my ability to convince in this public setting. I'd love to discuss further if you reach out to me https://daedalus.website/contact.html
remove all exchanges right now. i know people who need bitcoin and i exchange with them for fiat. how will that usage be under attack?
i don't use any of your contact methods. i use email and signal