Replying to TylerAbeoJordan

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So now you are making a distinction between capitalism and "exploitative capitalism"?

What does one have to do with the other? Do you also believe then in "exploitative socialism"?

Capitalism is private property, saving, investing, and trading. There's nothing exploitative as long as no guns are being pointed at people, no threats are being made, and no deception/fraud is taking place.

any authoritarian for of socialism would be exploitive.

Capitalism is guns being pointed at people. It can't be sustained without the state enforcing items like "limited liability" with a state baked by violence.

My use of the phrase "exploitive capitalism" was meant to make a distinction between what I would call capitalism (which is always exploitive) and what some other people call capitalism, which I would call a freed market.

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Discussion

Capitalism and socialism are internal arrangements within each unit of production i.e. between owners and workers of that unit.

Capitalism: the surplus (net profit) goes to the owners

Socialism: the surplus goes to the labor/workers

Hybrid models are possible where surplus is split between owners and workers.

Free market and state controlled market are external arrangements (influence, coercion) between units of production and consumers..

Suggested reading:

1. Spontaneous order

2. Understanding socialism and understanding Marxism by Richard Wolff

Peace and love