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End of the day, that's why bitcoiners say not your keys not your coins. It's the only way to know for sure. Everything else is a nonzero custodial risk.

All these structures you're talking about are simply the legacy system rebuilt on a digital platform and effectively produces no real solutions. It only presents solutions to problems they created themselves - no different from the legacy fiat financial system as a whole.

Yes, look at Enron. Look at FTX. *insert find the difference between these two pictures meme*

The only real innovation here is the bitcoin network. If it sits anywhere else, you're just risking your wealth for price exposure or convenience.

Chris Liss 11mo ago

I understand that, but let’s say you’re 70, and your nephew holds the coins in cold storage. Allegedly. That’s also counterparty risk — maybe he took your funds and did something else with them.

People are not ready en masse to self-custody with the current tools, but MSTR surely is ready to put the stock and bond market’s capital into it.

So the question is do those things coopt bitcoin (fake paper bitcoin on legacy financial rails) or does bitcoin via MSTR and the ETFs swallow the financial system into its rails (held in cold storage by MSTR.)?

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Discussion

Dave🐸 11mo ago

your keys: bitcoin

ETF and MSTR: IOU

PV🤙🏽

b799e60f... 11mo ago

And we all know what happens with IOUs right?

b799e60f... 11mo ago

Truth is: not your keys, not your coins.

I see nations moving towards paying in cash and card to pay via QRCode (Brazil, for example). The leap is high, but not impossible.

Those who trust other men to secure their treasures, will be stolen and raped by the same men.

Believing in IOUs will put people in the same position of imminent domain in the US, where the government said fuck it and let’s steal these fuckers gold (Americans) and make fiat a standard.

The point is very simple: you do whatever the fuck you want, as long as you do not fuck with other peoples property and/or rights. Wanna bet on ETFs and stocks? Go right ahead. Wanna bet on Bitcoin? Sure, go ahead. Everyone will deal with the outcomes based on the path they choose.

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 11mo ago

I think the world is not necessarily black and white. Things like ETF and MSTR sit somewhere Grey. Yes ideally everyone should self custody but that's not realistic in the short term or even in the relative long term for that matter.

I believe key is looking at whether it is a net negative or positive. ETFs and MSTR have gone a long way to onboard a certain population that would otherwise never have any bitcoin exposure or even hear about it. Now those people are paying attention.

Having your family members hold keys for you is absolutely a net positive. Not your coins but theres reputation and family harmony holding parties accountable. Another net positive.

wBTC does very little for advancing bitcoin in the long term. It only enables more shitcoinery and degenerate gambling. Yeah you're free to do it if you like, but it does nothing to advance bitcoin and sound mo by. It only greases the shitcoin casino wheels which in turn gives bitcoin a bad rep. Net negative by far.

Chris Liss 11mo ago

Yeah, you’ve sold me on wBTC being out of the question, not that I was ever considering it as an option for me or anyone I know. Just whether it was “real” BTC for the purposes of the scam coin buy or not.

But the bigger question isn’t just whether MSTR and the ETFs are net positive, but whether bitcoin via those vehicles will co-opt the legacy system or vice-versa.

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 11mo ago

Yeah it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. But im not reslly worried. I am in the camp that they coopt the legacy system and not the other way around.

The economic basis of bitcoin is sound. The problems with our current economy are painfully obvious, even to no-coiners at this point. The solution is bitcoin but there is a psychological barrier to adoption. The ETFs and MSTR go a long way of breaking that down and legitimizes bitcoin to many who would otherwise yell scam.

When it comes to those who control the ETFs and MSTR, control of bitcoin is based on hashrate not on # of coins owned. This is not an equity and bitcoin isn't a company. If any of the ETFs or Microstrategy decide to fork and do their own thing or attempt to wrestle control, they have no power unless they fork or attempt a 51% attack.

A 51% attack does nothing to change the actual underlying programming of bitcoin and will only be marginally effective in allowing them to censor or fasttrack certain transactions in the short term. Having 51% is not even a guarantee. Consensus still applies and eventually even Blackrock can run out of money.

If they choose to fork, again consensus will apply. They'll no longer be compatible with legacy bitcoin (real bitcoin). Unfortunately it's the shareholders who will suffer holding an ETF now backed by a shitcoin (Blackrock Coin). I'd be very surprised if anything more than a negligible amount of hashrate flows into a Blackrock coin. We've seen this play out before re: BCH/BSV