I would choose another time period.
Discussion
Why another time period? Also human history is progressive, and a story of human struggle and suffering. certain systems were more prevalent in certain areas and time periods.
Venice or Florence in the 14th or 15th centuries
Medici banking was riddled with corruption during this time. As well as other banks as they COMPETED for control. Very good example of the consequences of capitalism and how profits can exploit.
To start off with, did capitalism establish European control in the Americas?
Medici and other bankers weren’t a pure free market example because they often colluded with governments, securing favors and monopolies that distorted competition.
True capitalism thrives on voluntary exchange, not cronyism or state-backed privileges, which is what fueled much of the corruption in Florence’s banking
So why did you use this time period? I’m completely aware of what corruption looks like, that’s why I gave you the history on the time frame you selected. I would like to know when capitalism didn’t get “captured”.
No system’s perfect, capitalism just beats the others when it’s actually free.
No civilization/government has lasted forever because humans are corrupt, not the principles of capitalism
Capitalism does not beat the others because you have yet to give me any examples.
The second paragraph is correct except for capitalism does not get a pass. Maybe in your head it gets a pass, like some religions do with their gods, but in real life we don’t give passes because it didn’t turn out how we wanted. Innovate.
Like you said its a theory, because humans havent found a way to protect their property in perpetuity or secure freedom from government, the masses or each other is not a fault in capitalism its.
Humanity is an arc of discovery and progress and clearly humans are fallible. Technology and society advance have helped but still all governments/societies have ended. And thats not because the theory of capitalism, its in part, the successful corruption of it
No religion, i think its easily observable and objective: capitalism, the theory of voluntary cooperation is a positive thing for all
You will not have nor keep voluntary cooperation with profits are the motive.
It’s just a pipe dream I also use to tell myself until I kept reading and learning history.
Adam Smith knew where capitalism would lead…just like Oppenheimer.
I concede no system’s perfect—capitalism just beats the others when it’s actually free.
No group or politician can decide better for others. All humans are bias which leads to inherent conflicts of interest. War didn't start with capitalism. Humans have always been trying to protect themselves. Deciding for other people is a corrupt system.
Oppenheimer wasnt in the revolutionary war, he was part of a system controlled by global bankers including fdr who was related to teddy. I'll add a note below about teddy i wrote thats relevant. The world wars were far from a capitalist endeavor.
No one can stop technological advancement, even bombs. But incentives can change through societal structures which are influenced by technology, systems and the individuals ability to protect them selves and voluntarily act. And thats not condoning war or the use of bombs.
Note referenced above:
#Bitcoin fixes this
As President of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt, whose family grew rich through the Bank of New York, tied to J.P. Morgan’s empire, appointed Charles Bonaparte, Napoleon’s grandnephew to several powerful positions in his administration.
With Napoleon III ruling France until 1870, just years before Charles’s rise, this Harvard-educated insider knew his family’s wealth sat in French and English banks, linked to Morgan’s network.
Charles founded the FBI’s predecessor in 1908. His trust-busting stabilized European royalty and aristocracy connected industries, boosting centralized finance for elites like Morgan—a clear play to entrench transatlantic power.
Among other deep elite ties, Teddy Rosevelt's great grandfather founded the bank of New York with Hamilton.
Teddy's cousin started the chemical bank and his grandfather further built their wealth through that bank. The chemical bank merged with jp morgan.
Morgan had direct ties to royalty/banking elites in europe and their proxies.
This gave J.P. Morgan early access to royal and aristocratic networks, which he leveraged to dominate American finance. These ties made Morgan a linchpin between American industry and European royalty/banking dynasties.
He also used his influence to destabilize the banking system. He caused systemic pressure and chaos leading to the implementation of the federal reserve. Read the creature from Jekyll Island.
The media portrayed Teddy as a trust buster cracking down on banks and big business. His actions strengthened the most powerful and those connected to European royalty.
As mentioned at the top of this note, Theodore Roosevelt appointed a grandson of Napoleon Bonaparte's brother to several powerful positions in his administration, Charles Joseph Bonaparte, who had deep connections to European royalty and banking.
In 1905, Roosevelt appointed Bonaparte as Secretary of the Navy, and in 1906, he appointed him Attorney General.
In 1908 Bonaparte established and played a key role in the Bureau of Investigation, later renamed the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in 1924.
In nineteen thirteen, the Federal Reserve was covertly crafted on Jekyll Island, pushed through U.S. government channels by J.P. Morgan, linked to British and European banking elites, and Paul Warburg, tied to German banking dynasties like the Warburgs and Rothschilds.
This secretive deal, driven by elite financiers with deep transatlantic ties, centralized control of America’s money supply, raising troubling concerns about unchecked power and foreign influence in the nation’s economy.
Morgan’s London connections through J.S. Morgan & Company and Warburg’s European banking roots tied to the Federal Reserve’s origins hints at the controversial secrecy and elite control detailed in the book *The Creature from Jekyll Island*.
I’m sorry, capitalism CANNOT be free, thought we established that. If wars are fought for resources or profits, would that suit a capitalist more or a worker at a factory.
You applaud capitalism as the best, yet can give example time period for capitalism.
You say capitalism has no flaws, yet it is always corrupted.
You say capitalism is free market but the markets always reject it.
If you don’t see your relationship with capitalism akin to religion…we may need to pivot to psychology and theology. I mean that with as much respect as it can be given.
All systems have failed. The theory of capitalism has been obstructed and corrupted by centralization/authoritarianism.
The theory of capitalism wasn't/is not the problem, the problem is arbitrary rule of law.
World war or governments waging war is not capitalism, humans have always had conflicts, but free markets reduce incentives for war by fostering trade and mutual gain.
Capitalism channels tech into progress, but when elites control the system, it can be twisted toward destruction, like bombs.
Centralized systems, like the Federal Reserve or state-backed banks or the state, breeds corruption, not freedom.
Deciding for others is corrupt—they’d call that the root of the problem, and why capitalism, when it’s actually free, is the only system that respects individual choice, voluntary cooperation, private property, and incentivizes peace prosperity and coexistence.
I wish you well and hope that you read outside of your own religion. Everything you just wrote has been addressed by me numerous times but you keep repeating “capitalism is not at fault” while avoiding the hard facts. Thank you for your time.
Oppenheimer is another example of a brilliant mind caught in a system controlled by government and elite interests, not a pure free market.
The Manhattan Project was a government driven operation, funded and directed by the state, not a product of voluntary capitalist exchange. The massive state spending and secrecy around it, tied to military industrial goals had nothing to do with true capitalism, where individuals freely innovate and trade.
His role in creating the bomb shows how state power can hijack science for its own ends, not how free markets work.
It's a prime case of the state monopolizing force, far from decentralized freedom.
War and destruction is not capitalist, it's a push to maintain power and control be the state. It’s what happens when governments, not markets, call the shots.
Exploitation/corruption happens when power, whether from governments or connected elites overrides the market’s natural checks, like competition.
In a free market bad actors get weeded out because consumers and competitors can freely choose alternatives, unlike when political clout rigs the game. No system’s perfect, capitalism just beats the others when it’s actually free.
Competition CAN be good but also very consequential. So why has the free market allowed corruption to always take over?