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Christianity was in practice a compromise between Platonic mysticism (eg Augustine) and pagan/scientific influences (eg Aquinas)

The Platonic branch of Christianity gave us Kant & Marx, the forebears of wokeness, with the modern woke movement founded by admitted Marxists eg Kimberle Crenshaw

Wokeness seems to me to have little or nothing in common with the great liberals eg John Locke and Ludwig von Mises

Now, in the US for over a century progressivism (Fabian communism) has been wearing liberalism as a skin-suit, and neo "conservatism" as one for half a century. So it is quite understandable that one would blame the liberals, but that is simply not the lineage whose descendants now plague us

Moreover wokeness shares many toxic ideas with Abrahamic faith:

Sin is heritable

Our bodies imprison our true selves

We are all intrinsically evil

True knowledge comes from authority, not individual reason & experience

Goodness is submission, not flourishing

The last shall be first (oppression Olympics)

Chastity/castration as a special mark of piety

Abrahamic faith condemns worldly life, in consequence of which once in power it pursues worldly death

Omekau 2y ago

You seem more knowledgeable on these topics than I am. That said, I don’t agree with some of the portrayals of Christianity. “The imprisonment of our true selves”, “we are all intrinsically evil”, and “chastity/castration as a special mark of piety” seem a lot like the Albigensian (Catharism) heresy.

While not an official stance, I think the Catholic Church is in line with the hylomorphic thought that body and soul together are good. We are not just flesh and we are not just souls but the two together in one kind. That then flows into the idea of wanting kids/family and helping kids be good by helping teach and grow their moral intuitions (which is opposite to what wokeism thinks about reproduction)

“Goodness is submission, not flourishing” is a big claim as well. What does flourishing look like? I’d argue the goal outlined in life to know, love, and serve God leads to flourishing by helping us be saints. To seek to understand the metaphysically ultimate, to make virtue a habit, and to demonstrate faith by bearing good fruit leads to a flourishing society, no?

We are to be prudent in stewarding the world, not to condemn it. Creation is good.

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Discussion

a source familiar with the matter 2y ago

One need not accept two Gods to despise this life - mainstream Christian teaching is quite sufficient. This life is a test or trial after which comes the "real" life

A thought experiment: is abortion evil? Sure, infanticide destroys a perfectly innocent life, but that perfectly innocent life is immediately sent to eternal paradise. So on what basis can you condemn it? Only that it violates God's law (or on some sort of pagan or secular grounds)

As to all of us being intrinsically evil, that too is completely orthodox- we have inherited the origin sin of Adam & "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 (but this conflicts with the doctrine of childhood innocence just mentioned...)

The glorification of chastity is simply historical fact - St Margaret Mary was canonized in part for taking a vow of chastity as a small child

Flourishing means an embrace of this life for its own sake, embracing reason & observation, to "be fruitful and multiply" Genesis 1:28 (hey, not every line of scripture has to be rejected

The idea of humans as "stewards" of nature I particularly object to. This conception of middle creation I find quite alienating, placing man "above" and thus apart from nature but below and thus apart from God(s).

I think a healthier conception comingles man with both - God is Nature and so am I.

True power is not over the minds of men, but over Nature - producing a seeming paradox in which I both worship Reality and seek to control it. Resolution: Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed. (Sir Francis Bacon)

Omekau 2y ago

Abortion is evil because it depraves a life of its telos. And the result of that action we believe sends a life to purgatory as they have not been baptized, but that is ultimately a decision of God’s grace.

Man’s fallen nature is distinct from being “intrinsically evil”. There can still be virtuous pagans or unbelievers meaning there’s a moral sense imbued within us. To what ease and effect we’re able to hone that morality, I would argue, is to what extent we seek “the way, the truth, and the life”.

It’s true chastity can be a cornerstone of the ascetic life but that’s not an idea promulgated by wokeness, quite the opposite. Instead the focus is almost entirely on “sexual liberty”.

I don’t think our concepts of flourishing are at odds! It really comes down to how you reach a conclusion like that through the perception of objective truth or moral relativism which then requires the imposition of the will.

Hm, “God is Nature” is interesting. Maybe you could expand on that. I would say nature (in the physical sense) is God’s creation which while good, is separate from God. For example, we can admire the beauty of people, the sun, a tree, etc. and think God is great for its creation but we wouldn’t attribute any divinity to the creation itself. There’s a hierarchy to the world. We don’t take shoplifting grizzly bears to court because they don’t have the capacity to be rational/moral. Plants and animals show intelligence but humans are above them because we have a rational soul.

Then again, we may be disagreeing over the semantics of what “nature” and “reality” mean based on how much we consider the metaphysical or non-material.

a source familiar with the matter 2y ago

I think God (Jewish space wizard) is not real, but God (transcendental concept) is reality itself

a source familiar with the matter 2y ago

Let me offer you this olive branch:

I think the evidence is quite strong that Woke is a Christian sect. If you wish to reject it but preserve Christianity, look well into the differences between the Augustine & Aquanine branches of the faith. Perhaps there is enough of the old faith to salvage something of value