Replying to Avatar HODL

Before 1913, America had no central bank, no income tax, no fiat currency, and minimal federal interference. Markets were driven by gold, risk, and private capital not state planning.

The state didn’t set interest rates, bail out failure, or distort price signals. You built or you didn’t. You won or you lost.
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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

Capitalism likes to socialize the costs/losses while privatizing gains. It is the inevitable outcome that you and I will come to.

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HODL 6mo ago

That’s true under our current cornyist system, but our current system is so far removed from raw free market capitalism that it hardly can be called capitalism.

Btw for clarification, do you have an alternative system to capitalism that you would like to see implemented?

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

My opinions on alternative methods are irrelevant at this point. You and I, well, I am trying to get you to establish a time period, any time period where “true capitalism” existed. We can and will move on from this point if you concede that you don’t know of any such time period.

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HODL 6mo ago

I’m trying to operate in good faith here, but I’m getting the sense that you are not. So ciao it’s been fun.

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

How am I not operating in good faith? I ask simple questions to establish a baseline of knowledge and a foundation for discussion.

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HODL 6mo ago

You’re not answering my questions and you’re trying to do gotchas. Not really something I’m interested in. Nothing personal.

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

My apologies. Now that we have established that capitalism has never existed without the State. I believe there are many doctrines from many different views that could be applied to better humanity as a whole.

I also believe and history has proven, capitalisms “for profit” mindset is neither “free market” nor is it best.

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HODL 6mo ago

Can you name one of them?

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

Yes, I believe everyone owns their body and personal property.

I believe that profits in housing, healthcare, and any other essential to life is not only unethical but unsustainable.

I believe there is a much better way than having 1% own 95%.

I believe that bitcoin will help greatly to change these things but it cannot and will not fix everything…ideology has to change.

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

There are many more things I believe. In good faith I have answered, now can we get back to capitalisms flaws?

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HODL 6mo ago

You’re still refusing to name an alternative system. It’s a very simple question which is deserving of a simple answer.

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

There is no name to a “system”. I did give you several doctrines I believe in. I do not believe there is a “system” that fixes it. However, I do know capitalism definitely does not benefit humanity.

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

Gotta go for now. Father’s Day things. If you are a dad, happy Father’s Day. I’ll be back when I can. Thank you

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HODL 6mo ago

Fair enough. I gotta get back to Father’s Day as well. To be continued sir 🤝

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

Not to play “gotchas” but you stepped up to plate to bat by responding. You said you would love to defend the “virtues of capitalism” any time. Respectfully.

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HODL 6mo ago

That’s what I’m doing. I’m happy to have a broad debate about the merits of capitalism vs other systems. I’m not willing to do a debate where I have to defend a specific time period like the gilded age or something as the perfect embodiment of free market capitalism.

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HODL 6mo ago

Which is what you seem to want.

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

Well, unfortunately, if capitalism has never existed…that’s kind of a big deal. Gilded age was not capitalism…refer back to expansion , railroads, and trade…not to mention massive oppression of working class.

I’m not asking you to defend a time period. It is an indirect manner in which I am showing you that capitalism does not exist without the State. Instead of me telling you that, I let you explain why capitalism has never existed without the State.

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HODL 6mo ago

You are mistaking capitalism’s historical implementation for its philosophical essence. Capitalism is not the State. It is voluntary exchange, private property, and profit-driven production. Those behaviors emerge organically in every era, with or without centralized power. States often co-opt or distort capitalism, but they do not invent it. Trade, markets, and capital existed long before modern nation-states. What you are calling capitalism only with the state is really state interference in markets. That is like saying speech only exists because of governments issuing printing licenses. No. Speech exists in spite of them. Same with capitalism.

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₿☻Ḷↁ 6mo ago

This thread is exactly what I needed 🫡

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

I believe in voluntary exchange and all voluntary interactions.

Where we need to discuss is private property, who defines private property?

Also, profits are not needed for production, innovation, or participation in society.

Exploring these two things, we will reveal that the State is necessary for capitalism. Furthermore, I will lay the groundwork for the argument that “profits” lead to the establishment of the State AND for stronger intervention from the State.

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HODL 6mo ago

Private property does not require a state to exist. It requires social consensus and the ability to defend claims. These existed long before modern states. Tribes, clans, and merchant guilds recognized and enforced property norms without centralized authority.

Profit is simply the surplus created when output exceeds input. That is a basic feature of human effort. You can have profit without a state and you can have a state without profit. What the state does is insert itself between individuals and markets to tax, extract, and manipulate that surplus.

The state is not the foundation of capitalism. It is a parasite on it. It feeds off the productive capacity of voluntary exchange. In its worst form, it behaves like a cancer growing until it strangles the host that keeps it alive.

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JBN 6mo ago

I believe the argument is that tribes and clans were limited in their ability to Schreiber social consensus at scale and provide for the rights of the weak. That the ability to defend claims is available to some, naturally, by virtue of their ability, but with a state, it is then available to more, meaning justice for those less able.

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BlueDuckBTC 6mo ago

Correct, social consensus is required for property rights. You also need an entity to enforce this social contract as well. Which, historically speaking, is a centralized governing body or consented upon body of enforcers. Without enforcement, there is no private property.

Yes, profit is revenue above labor and materials. If you are consistently in profit AND seek more profit, that value has to be taken from somewhere.

It is not historically accurate nor factual that profits has been the motivation and intention of humans from the start. It is actually quite the opposite.

If capitalism worked so well, there would be no need for social programs to subsidize labor, healthcare, shelter, and education for capitalism.

Capitalism needs the cheapest labor and materials possible for more “profits”.

Capitalism is “rent seeking” behavior at every level and aspect. It literally goes against the proof of work concept. Capitalism profits just from owning the means of production and centralizing capital to own more means of production. It’s mathematically unsustainable and we are seeing why.

Bitcoin highlights capitalism flaws because Bitcoin was developed to stop capital control and prevent rent seeking behavior by demonetizing life essentials like housing.