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I wish Hal never posted this.

And I gave him a hundred merits for it.

There really is no other way for it to scale to the masses.

I really do respect your show and your take on things. And I am one of those Bitcoiners who also believes Monero is still important for example.

And scaling isn't the only issue. Also just the complexity of self custody of wealth safely and without making terrible errors is a huge deal.

In the end, I think we will see some "bitcoin banks" that really are rug pulls waiting to happen, but others that are designed in ways that make trade-offs that are worth the benefits.

For example, There are new wallets emerging that use combinations of on-chain, liquid, and lightning transactions along with trustless swaps to do amazing things while retaining ownership of your keys and keeping trust distributed.

See #aqua and #mistybreez.

I think we will also eventually see e-cash solutions developed that can fit into these types of methods as well. Although currently, the active solutions being developed are single trust point abominations, in my opinion.

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Discussion

goatmeal 8mo ago

cashu sats aren't bitcoin.

L-BTC isn't bitcoin either.

nothing will ever enable custodial IOUs to be bitcoin. it's completely impossible.

the custodian will debase and censor the IOUs. it's not different this time. you can count on this happening like you can count on communism failing. every time you make excuses for stripping off bitcoin's security model and giving control to custodians, you are speedrunning what happened to precious metals. stop being cute about it.

M0053 8mo ago

Stop being cute about it?

Fuck off.

You will not win any arguments being a jerk.

Also. You misrepresented what I said and are arguing against a strawman.

goatmeal 8mo ago

you are suggesting that we can't have mass adoption until the security model is thrown in the trash. why don't you throw yourself in the trash.

M0053 8mo ago

Because I am not an fool who can only think in black and white frames. Bitcoin needs to scale. And we are in the process of finding ways for it to scale. And some of them will be horribly misguided. Like the current state of #Cashu, for example. But that does not negate the value of figuring out how to make Chaumian mints work. It just means THAT implementation, in it's CURRENT form, used for anything more than a pittance of value is retarded. It is a rug pull waiting to happen. Like all centralized systems.

Bitcoin already solved the problem of trust to the finest degree we have seen. And even Bitcoin may not have solved it! Someday, someone may discover a way to game it's incentives. I doubt it, but I do not know everything yet... unlike you -- so you seem to think.

And you are right that LBTC <> BTC. Duh. But when did I ever say it was? In your frame I mentioned it in a non-negative way, so that makes me instantly wrong and a scammer or stupid.

Must be nice to live in such a simple world. Unable to see why working on ways to introduce cryptographic models that experiment with tradeoffs that MIGHT... just MIGHT be able to help bitcoin scale is worth it.

One of my first bits of advice to anyone struggling with Dunning-Krueger is to STOP framing things in black and white. Like: "If you disagree with me you are either wrong (stupid) or evil (scammer)." Throw yourself in the trash! (lol)

Will I put very much of my Bitcoin into LBTC? No. Of course not. The security model is weaker than the base layer. Again, duh.

But what I see, in a project led by a cryptographer with likely a HELL of a lot more wisdom than either of us, is a model that might just be something we can use to help bitcoin scale.

And wallets like #Aqua or #mistybreez are helping with the experiment.

If you stop at: #Liquid can't be perfect if it is not as distributed as possible, then you just stop.

On top of this NOTHING is stopping you from using L1 and L1 only.

THAT is the revolution. If you think certain L2 implimentations, or e-cash toys are not safe to use then by all means...

Simply do not use them.

That is the EXACT reason that I do not have a single satoshi in a CASHU mint and am concerned that Bitcoinners this this form of Chaumian e-cash is worth anything more than the experiment that it is.

BUT... unlike you, I am not going to just throw it all "in the trash". The the developers play with it. Let the fools put real value into it. Warn then if you like. I am. This message is a warning.

I will not call them idiots or fools though. Because I do not feel compel;led to be a dick.

Here is an example of an idiotic bac k/white argument like I see you spending a LOT of time doing in case you need a little help:

Since you like ETH, why not use that to scale Bitcoin? nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqsl6hhnzll4p4gxa4e7q4spmwqt79krylpn90p9spwl697g3fsr2qqs9lca6rhefynn2dt8kz47t44t24sd4dykljfa5lmwey47n6jn33ugwd8wyp

Oh, oh... but you missed my point?!?!?!? Right?

Welcome to the club. Not perfect yet? Throw it and you into the trash I guess.

I will not continue to suffer such foolishness.

goatmeal 8mo ago

scaling protocols that don't have unilateral exit should have zero TVL and replacing them should be treated like an emergency. it's black and white. stop promoting aqua wallet.

M0053 8mo ago

Stop telling me what to do.

Anyone else?

In in the mood for finding out who else to ignore.