actually, it's not the atmosphere, though it can do that. it's one of the ways you can tell when you are looking at a planet and not a star, mars, venus, jupiter and saturn all don't twinkle

why the stars twinkle though, is because at such a vast distance, only a tiny number of photons are actually coming to us, and the surface of stars is a roiling mess of sunspots, corona holes and filament loops, and the ones at the very centre of teh star, as we face it, are the ones that are getting to us, for the same reason as the camera obscura being fully in focus

btw, idk if you have ever been outside during an eclipse, but you can see images of it through the holes between the leaves of trees, and these modern LED street lamps are made of arrays of virtually point sources of light and they cause some weird visual effects as well because of the way the light is generated as points in a grid

anyway, the stars twinkle because the surface of stars that we are seeing is basically the tiniest little part of the star, and we just get a tiny glimpse of a tiny spot on it, which in most cases will literally be several square millimetres of surface that is actually emitting light right at us, as well as small amounts of light progressively less and less around the surface of the star, that are on a plane that is pointing away, but the photons got shot at a converging point towards us

so stars twinkle, but planets don't twinkle because of the opposite thing, as i was saying if you make the camera obscura hole bigger, the image will become more and more out of focus, and in photography, this equates to changing the diameter of the aperture, and this narrows the depth of field meaning that only a small region of the distance from the object to the camera is in focus, and the lens allows you to focus just that part of it fully correctly, when you twist the camera's lens back and forth, it changes the distance at which the depth of field is centered, allowing you to do close-up photographs of an object that stands out starkly by being in focus while almost everything else is out of focus

i used to have some alcatel phone that had a really nice macro capability that let me take that style of photograph, and it was handy because it automatically figured out the right focal distance using an infrared sensor.

atmospheric distortions do happen, especially on hot days, but usually more close to the ground, or where a large body of hot air is coming in under a cold body above it, but what causes the star to twinkle is you literally are only looking at a tiny bit of it

idk if you have ever used a camera with wide angle (thick) lens, either, but even regular cameras on phones now, you can notice that as you get closer to an object, it seems more round, if you go to the mirror, and stand back, you see one image, but if you get up real close, you see that your face gets more rounded at the edges and the things in the center of your vision bulge out like fish-eye.

that's what we are seeing of the stars, but not because of being close up, because only a small amount of the light that comes from it is from outside of a tiny area in the middle as it faces you

yeah, i was always quite curious about these phenomena, it was one of the things that fascinated me about psychedelic drugs (and methamphetamines, which also increase pupillary dilation). as well as all the odd things that those drugs do to your visual cortex in how it processes the raw image data and puts all those patterns and stuff in it.

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

Halfway done reading but need a break. Thanks for info on star. Think I may have to read again later to make sure I got it, but think I'm close. Too lazy a Sunday to think it through further. 🤕

yeah, it's hard to explain it in text, visuals are essential, and it's one of my favourite things, figuring out how to express in words concepts that people get pictures from, because i think in pictures. that feeling of making a connection.

Read full thing again. Got most of that. I guess what I had wrong was that the thing acting like a point source is only a small patch of the star. But why does the small patch twinkle exactly? My visual of it was the "line of photons" gets warped here and there and misses your eye entirely, but you mentioned dark spots etc as the cause.

Also makes me wonder why it wouldn't be a moving patch that you're observing since relatively the star must be moving.

I get the camera obscura better now. Trade off is lower intensity signal, thus longer exposure needed. Thanks!

you would have heard of sunspots, these can be seen using a camera obscura looking at the sun

when you increase the dynamic range you can see even more detailof the varying brightness of the surface, it's like a boiling pot of water, constantly, every so often a little flash here and another pop there

the reason why is because stars have very complex magnetic fields, and the upper atmosphere of the star, is basically on fire

Think I more or less get that. I was unsure if you were saying the twinkling/flickering of stars was the result of spots moving across the small patch we see, and not the atmosphere bending the line of photons. Seemed like you were but hard to believe. And upon further consideration I was wondering if the light we see is actually that of a small patch (our window of sight) moving across the surface of the star as it moves.

Not to drag this out too long, just wanted closure. I may look it up later to sort this out

https://multiverse.ssl.berkeley.edu/Portals/0/Documents/FiveStarsCurriculumDocs/Multiwavelength%20Sun%20Images.pdf

this gives you some idea of the wide variance of light, especially note the ultraviolet, there is a wide difference between the darker and lighter parts, in general already there is sunspots but the bright areas are also quite varying in intensity around that, the dynamic range of the visible spectrum cameras is low, it would require a proper HDR capture to really see just how much the brightness varies

the UV also gives you some idea of how much the pops and zaps of those plasma filaments is constantly changing, on the Space Weather News channel he always starts the show with images of the sun as it is, animated, and the bright flashes that occur around the edges especially are easy to see how they would make what we see from far away fluctuate randomly

planets don't fluctuate in their bightness so much because they absorb a lot of the light and diffuse the light widely across the surface, so they appear not to flicker in the same way... they also get darker just like the moon, but being further away you just can't see them at all when they are at an angle where the bright side is facing away from you

Thanks. Still not entirely sure it's those irregularities which cause interruptions/flickering though, and not atmospheric distortion of a "point source." Quick gpt seems to indicate it's atmospheric distortions, and those don't apply to planets for reasons you mentioned (it's larger and thus distorted, so additional distortions from atmosphere are imperceptible (just more noise on top of a wide noisy signal).

Thanks for the knowledge dump. Learned lots 🧠

Side note - heard while discussing this with someone yesterday that there is some sort of eye strengthening exercise one can do with glasses full of small holes (or a screen you move back and forth in front of eyes) while staring at red light, that is supposed to help restore eyes... may have to look into it

ah, interesting, i'll be following what you find

i'd love to ditch these +1s

Letchu know