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I believe you did those things, but have viruses been shown to exist using the scientific method without using cell cultures? I can't find a single study or paper that proves that most foundational fact

This quote from Dr. Jordan Grant sums up my issues pretty well:

"I can promise you all right now: you will not find a SINGLE paper in the history of virology which has found the 'thing' inside a human being (or animal), taken that THING as the independent variable in a legitimate experiment, and proven it CAUSES the disease being studied.

That is what is necessary.

When we ask for this, and they give us the cell culture question begging nonsense, you realize it quickly that they have nothing, otherwise they'd be giving us the true scientific papers. It should be easy, if they're there...and they're not.

They do not get off the hook by begging the question. Meaning, they say "virus" as if this entity was ever PROVEN to exist, yet they cannot give you any original papers where such a thing was done.

INSTEAD, they simply PRESUPPOSE (beg the question) that this entity is real, and then engage in their cell culture nonsense and claim the EFFECT they see is "proof of the virus".

This is a logical fallacy. It is affirming the consequent, only worse, because their antecedent hasn't even been shown to EXIST.

For example, if I said "if it rains, my car will be wet. My car is wet, therefore it rained" - this would be a logical fallacy. But the "rain" is known to at least EXIST.

With viruses, it's simply "if my fairy tale belief is true, we will see XYZ in a cell culture. we DO see XYZ, therefore my fairy tale belief is true".

It's the worst form of affirming the consequent because it also incorporates unproven premises.

This is the STANDARD for virology.

once you get this, you can dissect any paper.

IF they claim "we know the virus is there because of the CPE", ask them which paper ever proved that a virus caused CPE, and where "virus" was proven in the first place. You don't get to claim an EFFECT is proof of anything without the antecedent"

dantzler 3mo ago

What would be acceptable evidence for you?

I left out a bunch because my note was long AF.

When we transfected cells and could see editing via next gen sequencing, we had controls. If we 'transfected' with just buffer (no AAV vector) or if we transfected with purified empty capsids (no payload) or if we transfected with a non-functional 'dummy' payload we got no editing. So we controlled for some spontaneous process occurring in the cells to give us our results - it turns out we required intact capsids with the correct engineered payload to see function that we could measure.

For your car analogy, did you also park your car under a carport roof or next to a sprinkler on a sunny day to explore other ways a car could get wet or stay dry?

An AAV virus is on the order of 25 nm in size, so hard to study. Like many things at this scale, we must be creative and attempt to form hypotheses and devise experiments to test them.

If I had access to a BSL4 lab and a supply of monkeys recently deceased from ebola and I handed you a teaspoon full of their bodily fluids that I had subjected to techniques used to purify/enrich for viral particles, would you consume it if I offered you 1 BTC to do so?

[ spoiler: I would not let you because I care about your well being! ]

Humans may think we are pretty smart monkeys, but there are innumerable things in our universe that we do not understand or even know about. I find being comfortable with this more fun that constraining what I am willing to ponder based on an evolving framework.

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Stacking Functions 3mo ago 💬 2

Pls look at my response to Hanshan. I'm not trying to debate, just wanted to offer an example to Hodl's original idea. Please do look up the Rosenau experiments from the "Spanish flu"- that was quite enlightening for me.

Funny enough I haven't been "sick" since I stopped believing in viruses and germ theory years ago

Everyone is free to believe what they want

dantzler 3mo ago

I will look at that. Thank you.

I agree that the Spanish flu is not what it seems and that many if not most of the people reputed to have died from flu likely died from something else (e.g. secondary bacterial infections, etc.)

Your profile lists homesteading as an interest, and I'm pretty sure that is why I originally followed you. I'm also working on homesteading. We harvested dozens of pears, asian pears, shallots, onions, potatoes & zucchini this past weekend. I am lucky to have a horticulturist as my beloved partner.

In the spirit of curiosity & improved plant yields, consider that there are plant pathogens that have been classified as viruses (various mosiac, wilt, leaf roll, leaf curl, etc.) that unfortunately infect tomatoes, potatoes, beans, cucumbers, peppers, spinach, etc. There are empirically determined mitigation strategies such as crop rotation, sanitizing of tools, reduction of insect vectors and pests, etc. I am trying to learn more about these to improve my ability to produce food.

The narrative around plant pathogens is less charged at the moment and may provide another perspective to learn and understand about this class of plant diseases.

Thank you for engaging respectfully and I agree that we are all free to believe what we wish. Be well.

Stacking Functions 3mo ago 💬 1

Terrain theory applies to all living beings.

The original definition of a virus is poison.

So poisons and toxins in the soil will present as "virus" and disease in the plant. Healthy soil doesn't express "viruses and disease" in its plants because its in healthy homeostasis.

Just build microbially rich, in balance, mineral rich soil that can facilitate free-flowing cation exchange and you'll have healthy plants.

Everything comes back to the root cause of toxicity and deficiency, so correcting symptoms just suppresses the issues and makes root cause solutions harder to assess and implement

Biochar, sea minerals, paramagnetic rock, molasses, kelp, healthy compost, and compost teas will all strengthen and enhance your soils "terrain" and then you won't have to waste your time diagnosing disease and pest issues.

Also electroculture helps- don't know why or how but it does

https://www.thespruce.com/what-is-electroculture-gardening-8697899

dantzler 3mo ago

I agree with the vast majority of what you have written here. 😄

It is challenging at the beginning of developing a garden (we are only now 1 year on the property) to move things in the direction of healthy, microbially rich soil. The fun is in the journey and the learning.

So far, using deep leaf mulching from the abundant trees in the non-garden space has helped out compete weeds and add organic material to our clay-rich soils. We hunted for symphylans this weekend and fortunately did not find any. I'm excited to put some soil under a microscope to look at what kinds of nematodes we have, among other tiny soil creatures.

As you say, plants in healthy soil, like a healthy body will resist assault by pathogens. Both human and plant immune systems are truly amazing.