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Keysa - Simplest Bitcoin Edu 2y ago

Curious why I’m not seeing *any* discussion here on spam filtering/season 1/season 2 bitcoin/stamps/BTC-20s and all that stuff here?

I mean I know it’s not pretty but there a frikkin war brewing and the VC shill side is gathering troops and demanding core maintainers fulfill their ‘mandate’ to push these softforks yada yada

Don’t take me word for word here, I’m surely not laying out a very clear picture but do any of you have a solid take on what’s happening and why I shouldn’t view it as an attack on bitcoin as a monetary network?

Do you think the only thing that matters is that the miners are making bucket loads of money as these degens (what they call themselves) pay $4000 fees for a 536 sat tx?

Do y’all just think they will put price themselves and it’ll all just pass over?

Is this the needed pressure to develop L2’s that work for scaling?

Do you think bitcoin is also a file storage network and we should be happy that toddler-art-by-adults is being produced by the gazillions to be forever stored on your node?

Does it concern you that a load of the funding is from Starkware/Lubin/Buterin? (I don’t mean the liquidity, I mean the taproot wizard funding that is the main *advertising* for this stuff)

Do you know what OP_CAT is, and that they are working hard to get it activated again?

Do you know what Quantum Cats is?

Do you know what BIP Land is?

You are welcome for being in the trenches over there to come here battered and bruised to report back 😵‍💫

Please let me know your thoughts and tell me it’s all gonna be ok 😥😅

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Discussion

Derek Ross 2y ago

It's definitely an attack on bitcoin. It's being led by bad actors and big blockers. We're going to end up needing a soft fork. I've said all of this since last February. I don't really have anything new to say. Many people here either a) don't care or b) feel they're going to run out of money and this will fix itself. Though, with choice b, I don't think they're correct. They'll always make more Shitcoins and dump on more dumb money to create more scams. Therefore, the only way to stop the spam and attack is to fix clients or fork. The issue with forking is we all know that a fork will always fail, so neither group will run the fork, so, finally, that means we fix the spam in Bitcoin Core.

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

I hear a lot of talk about forks but I still don’t understand where there even is a surface area to fork. You’re not going to be able to fork out ordinals, and the ordinals people don’t benefit by forking away themselves, so I’m pretty sure we’ll be stuck with each other.

That’s not a bad thing either. Nothing they’ve done so far is harmful to Bitcoin. In fact, I love people “wasting” money by using Bitcoin. If you try to fork away from high demand mempools, you will be the one who ultimately loses. Guaranteed.

Keysa - Simplest Bitcoin Edu 2y ago

I hope you are right 🙏That is absolutely not the direction it is taking rn, and the spammers are convincing more and more people that what they are doing is ‘bringing millions to bitcoin’ which I think is delusional, because those ‘millions’ will leave disillusioned once they become exit liquidity

Dan Wedge 2y ago

I get the feeling here that all that's noise. There are a ton of node runners and miners here. High fees are good, ordinals while not ideal aren't going anywhere.

There's cashu and lighting and fedimints bring run from nodes on phones and we have been banned by nation states foreign and domestic.

Hey ~13500 blocks left till halfinning you think it will land on 4/20? Or ₿efore as we still increasing the difficulty every 2106 blocks on average.

Keysa - Simplest Bitcoin Edu 2y ago

I appreciate your positivity but I am not sure if you read my whole post, or are aware of the levels that the ordinals/stamps/BTC-20 ppl are going to.

Re the halfinning, I really don’t know.. sooo much can happen between now and then 😂

Dan Wedge 2y ago

My apologies, my thoughts are convoluted and half there. I mentioned the other things because that's the cool exciting things we are talking about.

There will always be threats to the chain. each change will have unintended consequences, and they will print more fiat to slow and gum it up with jpegs. But the chain they can't stop it. If they fork the chain, I am self custodial and will immediately dump the new “solution” for Bitcoin.

In terms of a soft fork we dont need to update our nodes, we might have to upgrade our hard drives.

It is a tragedy that rich people are making on chain transactions less attainable which could hurt adoption where it is needed most.

#Halfinning

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

It’s a double edged sword. Rich people are also making mining more profitable, which is helping to incentivize grid infrastructure in otherwise low income areas.

The block size limit is also still in place. Nodes with a 2TB SSD should have at least 8 more years before they need to upgrade. As long as we continue to enforce the block size (VERY important) we will end up with linear data growth and it should be predictable and manageable going forward.

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

Yeah all that stuff is noise. “Quantum cats” looks like a joke based on their website. Ordinals, while scammy, are not an issue and I don’t want a fork nor do I think there will be one.

Me personally, I’m going to be running the exact same software on my node that I’ve ran for over a year now. The only thing I even have a tiny interest in is CTV, but it’s not something we should rush. Anyone who wants to fork away from me, be my guest. I’ll be promptly dumping your shitcoin for more Bitcoin.

Soft forks which don’t break consensus and are backwards compatible are completely fine. If anything, we should do them more. I highly encourage anyone who wants to make a soft change to Bitcoin which is backwards compatible to do so on their own node. I risk nothing, and I stand to benefit if their software ends up being cool.

mrclownworld 2y ago

Yes it’s a state level attack by Mossad. The orange pill movement, by contrast, is funded heavily by the CIA, who are trying more sneakily to put dollars on Lightning and Liquid, etc

This is the battle for the future of money, you don’t think we were getting there without the big dogs fighting do you?

But seriously in the end they’re just vandalizing the timechain in its early days when demand is low. If this can destroy Bitcoin then Bitcoin was never anti-fragile to begin with

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

I agree completely with the last paragraph. As for it being a state attack, maybe. I haven’t felt very “attacked” yet though. To me, it’s certainly a well funded ideologically motivated mission, but their goals seem disorganized and unclear.

It could very well just be salty big blockers and ethereum shitcoiners coming to fuck around.

mrclownworld 2y ago

Udi and the gang are all Mossad

Saylor, Tether, Keiser, Foss, Lavish are all CIA (Five Eyes, check out Cantor Fitzgerald)

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

If the CIA wants to support Bitcoin, wouldn’t that make them the good guys though?

I’m sorry if I’m a bit slow - I’m legitimately trying to understand - why couldn’t it just be that individuals independently came to support Bitcoin in different ways? What would their connection and mission be as a part of the CIA?

Keiser especially, considering he was around since 2011, and has expatriated.

mrclownworld 2y ago

I don’t think you know what the CIA actually is

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

I don’t - certainly not in this context. Do you care to elaborate or are there any resources I could use to help me answer those questions?

mrclownworld 2y ago

Books like The Devil’s Chessboard, CHAOS

The New Pearl Harbor documentary

https://youtu.be/OCzy9i4tIHU?si=4neaC3KauPW-qIWh

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

Thank you, I appreciate it, I’ll check it out.

If you had to summarize though, why would supposed CIA operatives support Bitcoin?

mrclownworld 2y ago

Because the CIA holds a lot of Bitcoin through its front companies Microstrategy as well as its pet projects The Silk Road and Tether (banked by CIA front company Cantor Fitzgerald)

And they definitely made up Ross Ulbricht and probably made up Satoshi Nakamoto

And because they’ve been gaming out the end of the petrodollar for decades

Just watch who goes on CNBC, that’s the spooky crowd

mrclownworld 2y ago

The CIA answers, not to the government, but the “regime” (the term they use for “deep state” in all of their academic journal publications that I’ve read)

The “regime” has been anticipating the geopolitical fallout of a collapsed dollar for decades and has been positioning itself to be victorious with Bitcoin

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

Am I the regime then ?

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

^ That’s exactly what I was wondering 🤣

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

I was hoping to feel a bit more James Bond than this if so 😂

mrclownworld 2y ago

Jokes aside, I came to this conclusion some time ago and decided that, in the real world, there’s going to be SOME intelligence operation on my side if my side is worth being on

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

That’s very true.

Well, fuck it! If the deep state has a secret plot to weasel out of the disaster which was the end of the gold standard and our fiat monetary system, good for them. I hope they succeed!

mrclownworld 2y ago

Exactly! You’re getting it. It’s not a black or white pill. It’s very much a shades of grey pill 😂

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

Deep State doesn’t want you or I around and certainly won’t pump our bags. They may co opt Bitcoin but it’ll be for them. If it gets dark we won’t be invited to the Party rest assured

mrclownworld 2y ago

The spooks need anonymous cash

They’ve been doing business with briefcases full of cash and gold for decades, they cannot use a CBDC, no way

It’s like Tor. Naval intelligence built Tor. They have to encourage others to use it so that it’s not only spies using it. Same concept.

(Probably should have led with this reasoning)

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

I agree with this reasoning and it’s a much better middle ground between no involvement and a thought out plan to cause a monetary revolution. But Bitcoin isn’t really that good as anonymous cash. Wouldn’t a project like Monero better fit this description?

mrclownworld 2y ago

I think they want cash that they can use anonymously while they surveil everyone else

Again, just like Tor or Signal. I think those are astroturf privacy

Monero might be too good

Also, they need mass adoption. Monero is too private to get mass adoption by institutions

Is this making sense?

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

Yes, that makes sense.

The only thing for me which still doesn’t quite make sense is the idea of 21M. Privacy is important, but the idea of a economic system with a fixed amount of currency has the ability to completely transform the world.

It seems strange to me that they would give us such a powerful and transformative tool for economic prosperity just so that they could have anonymous digital cash and do chain surveillance.

The legacy financial system already allows them to see everything if they want, and their budget is never audited and they can already basically use our tax dollars however they wish.

Maybe they just didn’t fully understand the implications.

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

Yes I get your idea, but the Deep State could easily use CBDCs programmed in their favour and it would be anonymous. They run the system

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

Current dollars are essentially anonymous for the feds. Go and try to track government spending through an economy. There are many line items which are intentionally hidden. It’s basically impossible.

Bitcoin is 100 times more transparent on the base layer than our current monetary system (assuming you’re not the federal reserve or the government itself)

mrclownworld 2y ago

It’s complicated

Spies don’t openly run systems, they infiltrate all systems and operate from within

The CIA isn’t even technically supposed to operate domestically (LOL if you believe that)

A CBDC would leave them more visible to others than they want to be

By way of example: Edward Snowden is CIA. He exposed the NSA probably because there was an interagency squabble where the NSA was tracking everything CIA agents were doing and they didn’t like it lol. And also the NSA probably wasn’t sharing with CIA like they wanted. So some good old fashioned HUMINT went in and exposed the most sophisticated SIGINT operation in human history

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

I have no idea on this, i only know humans fuck it up every time. If we wish to destroy ourselves we will, i doubt it. Bitcoin exists and could also ultimately be ruined, more chance. However I hope there is a humanity level shift in consciousness where next level connections are forged. Bitcoin is amazing for this

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

Bitcoin is pretty unfuckable. Because it’s ultimately just an idea, and even if you fuck it a bit with a bad implementation or a cyber attack or a really bad change, it’s always possible to unfuck it.

Bitcoin is a whole new form of life, in an even more profound way than the internet. It will outlive us.

People using it for JPegs is literally so irrelevant that it makes my head hurt when people spend energy worrying about it.

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

I lived through the Cold War era, constant ‘Russia’ fearporn. Yes there could be Nuclear armageddon but it serves no purpose. Deep State want control. Bitcoin is a paradigm shift. My hope is it opens a door to higher consciousness and Human prosperity not the opposite

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

I agree with your last sentence. I’m very impartial when it comes to the origins of Bitcoin. Ultimately, it’s here, and we can use it, so it doesn’t really matter.

I am spending a lot of time entertaining this idea not because I care about it from a Bitcoin perspective, but because I’m trying to understand why an organization like the CIA would have done something so incredible.

mrclownworld 2y ago

Bitcoin is money for enemies. I do think it’s a one of a kind discovery that actually aligns incentives among all participants. Although, the ordinals question that started this conversation is a challenge to that notion

And there is always the potential of a rug pull somehow if the CIA really did invent and front run as satoshi, or gains early access to the ability to crack sha256

But all of this has to be weighed against… what’s the alternative? A CBDC? Pass

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

This is a technicality but SHA256 doesn’t matter (that) much for Bitcoin security - ECDSA is really what would have to be cracked to be significant.

SHA256 cannot be “cracked” because it’s a one way hash function. You could put any data in, and it makes a 256bit fingerprint no matter what. Since the size of the data is irrelevant, any hash output has theoretically limitless possible inputs. So even if you had an efficient way of reversing a hash, you’d have no way of knowing if the correct input you generated was actually the data that you started with. You could have multiple different inputs which generate the same output, though the space is so big that collisions never ever happen (something like 10^77 possibilities)

Ordinals is a complete joke and a total non-threat to Bitcoin. The people who think we need to fork have been, and always will be, only a threat to themselves.

mrclownworld 2y ago

Yes sorry elliptic curve would be the rug

I’m not extremely technical but I read a good piece on what the emergence of quantum would *actually* look like

Does seem like we ought to move to schnorr signatures sooner rather than later though

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

If you want a fun rabbit hole to go down, I highly recommend researching more about quantum computing.

I’m not an expert and I cannot claim to know anything with 100% certainty, but a lot of it doesn’t make any sense. I’d put my skepticism on the same level as your skepticism about nukes.

Essentially, the only way they would work is by having large sets of QBits entangled in a state of quantum superposition, running a function, and then making a measurement. But the problem is that even though you can get exponentially more efficiency with more QBits, you also have to make an exponentially increasing amount of state measurements.

Modern quantum computers get around this by being

1. Really small and inefficient

2. Segmented into separate sections instead of all entangled together

But there isn’t any known way to make enough state measurements to make them useable to crack sophisticated encryption in reasonable times.

Just my two sats though - definitely DYOR.

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

Under the thesis outlined by nostr:npub1xsf5h8suhveztq4u5spq5wwvzftqxmglt6vwllxg8z6zrlpqn4yqrulu9v they were involved in creating it and have been part of it in some way this whole time. Why would they try to co-opt Bitcoin if it was their idea in the first place?

mrclownworld 2y ago

I think the key is separating the bankers & bureaucrats who operate in the light from the spooks who operate in the shadows

Sure there is overlap but there are elites in both camps and it’s the latter group I think NEED Bitcoin to succeed to keep their racket going

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

What do you consider their racket? Government coups? Epstein stuff? Both?

mrclownworld 2y ago

All of the above

The CIA has overthrown governments in at least 1/3 of the countries on earth

They assassinate people all the time

They run the world’s drug trade

They assassinate people like Gary Webb who expose how they run the world’s drug trade

They make movies in Hollywood about how they control the world’s drug trade (American Made)

They invent global terrorism to fill the void of the Soviet Union as public enemy number one

They invent the character of Osama Bin Laden and use it to drive decades of war

They false flag start wars like Vietnam

They drug and brainwash Manchurian candidate assassins through MKUltra

They shoot some Kennedys and frame some Nixons

And they make so many damn movies about all of it lol

mrclownworld 2y ago

They invent the character of Charles Manson and swiftly end the hippie era with a fake set of satanic murders starring an actress who was in satanic movies who was at the house of a director who directed satanic movies… LOL my friends LOL

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

You’re spitting facts on that one. All of that I know to be objectively true. In the long run, I would speculate Bitcoin would allow them to do less of that kind of shit, not more.

But I suppose if they are squatting on 1M coins they probably would have a pretty big runway🤣

(not that I necessarily believe they are)

mrclownworld 2y ago

Exactly, you get it

They’re at least sitting on Saylor’s coins tho

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

I think the whole Saylor Treasury is very suspect

mrclownworld 2y ago

That’s not the only suspect about that company

Vendor financed with DuPont money

Went public

Offices all over the world

What product do they sell? Just one, please lol

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

Well funnily enough, business intelligence software 🤣

I’m not convinced about the Saylor/Microstrategy/CIA thing, but it’s certainly an interesting possibility and a good critical thought experiment. And I definitely think it’s a possibility. Just not a certainty.

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

I enjoy these threads though. I find blind following of Saylor worship by ‘influencers’ very shallow. Something is occurring and no idea what. I stack sats as an energy connection of perfect value across time and space. I love this instant human connection. But as I say humans are great at both invention and destruction. Let’s hope this one leads to a positive shift to a new open era. 🤷‍♂️

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

I love the book Atlas Shrugged.

Saylors speech at the Atlas society is incredible and fully convinced me that he completely understands what is happening here and authentically supports it.

Questioning everything is what got us here - and that’s a good thing. There are no high priests in Bitcoin. Accusing each other of being undercover CIA operatives is a way of showing love and respect.

mrclownworld 2y ago

Well the only guy that has ever been called the High Priest is the spookiest of all 😂 (Keiser)

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

Love that last line 😂

BitcoinSandy 2y ago

The era was ending due to natural human excess that happens everytime. People move on. We repeat cycles.

Zach⚡️ 2y ago

I’m with you on a lot of this stuff. Although I don’t have the evidence to prove it 100%, I can accept that a lot of this is possible.

If this is all true though, I would support their actions. That’s what confuses me. I’ve always thought of the CIA as a bureaucratic boogeyman which destabilizes the world and erodes our prosperity and freedom. If they have been big Bitcoin advocates; that would put me on their team. Very strange.

やトナ 2y ago

What is their aim in “grinding through bitcoin dev mailing list posts”?

やトナ 2y ago

Nvm, I read more about this. I was never truly worried about ordinals. Inscriptions will die just like the NFT market did in 2022. It’s not sustainable.

OP_CAT seems unnecessary at first glance. Bitcoin is Bitcoin and doesn’t need to be fancy but I need to read more about it to fully understand it. Thank you for bringing more attention to this.