Subnostr

You can rightfully call Wasabi wallet cowardly, but if you were in their position would you choose to go to jail like the Tornado Cash dev while being unable to pay the developers who work on building the future of privacy? As a matter of fact, are spooks ever concerned about going to jail or do they LARP 24/7 on Twitter about having created a wallet for the streets that’s perfect even though it collects the xpubs of users (I’m referring to Samourai here).

You also don’t understand how this works. Bitcoin is a public ledger, chain surveillance doesn’t need anyone to send them addresses because it’s all in the open. What CoinJoins do is to do large public transactions where the inputs are known, while the outputs become a more difficult guess.

What ZK Snacks did was to avoid “North Korea and human traffickers are using Wasabi” accusations by denying service to unwanted participants. They have no expertise in filtering, so they delegated the task to a company which already curates lists of addresses associated with crime.

When you own a blacklisted UTXO and try to join a CJ round, you get an error message on your screen. Wasabi, ZK Snacks & blockchain analysis can’t know who/where you are because they have no access to IP addresses (communications happen over Tor) or xpubs (Wasabi makes you download blocks so you don’t use somebody else’s node).

Blockchain analysis doesn’t get any kind of information that they didn’t already have.

The side effect of this controversial decision is that the volumes increased. Now exchanges can no longer accuse Wasabi CoinJoins of being potentially criminal. They might as well join some rounds too. So if you get into a Wasabi mix, you know that your coins are universally accepted.

I’m sorry that you got poisoned with misinformation and distorted facts. But in the spirit of Bitcoin, I’ll let you take a look at a Wasabi CoinJoin so you understand what it is and what it does: https://mempool.space/tx/13e6b17842c4aeee6f30642abb493f7eea0fcd809df9a35a83a3c364addb1ae3

Ken 🎋 2y ago

This answer is better than your precious "lol", but you make serious accusations towards Samourai devs, based on lies (Heard about running your own dojo? Of course you have. Maybe mention it next time...)

Those "spooks" don't need to pay anyone to get their open-source product used by many. Unlike Wasabi sponsoring you and many others "influencers" much bigger than you. That's a lot of cash. Just saying.

Your condescending remarks about my understanding of this topic:

Dude, you're a very public figure, we all know where you stand with this tech, and how well you (mis)understand it

You don't know the first thing about me. For all you know, I could have contributed to all 3 main CJ projects during the past 5 years.

Don't worry about me. I understand enough to call BS when I see BS. So spare me the condescendance, and the other fallacious blobs. I won't reply to all of them. If you really believe there's nothing else to discuss.

You try to justify the collab with chain surveillance, and mentioning a few positive outcomes doesn't change the facts, this is just wrong. And yeah, chain analysis (so the 3 letters agencies) know more thanks to Wasabi. No matter how you portray it, with a lot of misconceptions.

There's a lot of things I like with Wasabi, but the problems far outweigh the benefits.

We're not gonna agree on this so let's move on I guess 🙄

Everyone should go listen to the full CITADEL DISPATCH episode 15 with Openoms and Nopara.

Oldie but goodie.

Then you tell me who's a spook.

PV.

Vlad, Bitcoin Takeover Podcast 2y ago

If you judge a project according to how a non-native English conducts himself in interviews, you’re ngmi.

You say you’re technical enough to have contributed to all 3 CoinJoin projects but bring people and personal attacks as your only arguments?

Please tell me more 😂

Ken 🎋 2y ago

I don't say I am technical enough, I say i could be.

I also say, since you promote a project directly linked to surveillance companies, you're not the best person to call people spooks. And your arguments are ridiculous, or simply lies.

You can keep laughing and smiling, or being condescending, this doesn't make you right.

In Citadel Dispatch 25, Nopara refuses to answer questions, to the point Matt Odell is on the verge of losing patience and it's palpable. That says something about the insanity of this interview.

This has NOTHING to do with being a native speaker or not.

His English is probably better than mine, but he's not debating in good faith, and neither are you. So no, I'm not gonna tell you more, this is a waste of time. Precious resource for both of us.

Vlad, Bitcoin Takeover Podcast 2y ago

I could also be starring in the Fast & Furious series alongside Vin Diesel and the Rock. But guess what, reality contradicts my pointless expectation. And it does the same with your dishonest “I could have” claim.

You don’t even understand how Bitcoin works and what blockchain analysis can and can’t do.

But you, for whatever reason, defend a spook and a company which owns a closed source blockchain analysis tool, collects the xpubs of newbie users, received financing from 3 letter agencies for the GoTenna project, and regularly creates Telegram chats where the users talk about their CoinJoin rounds.

Samourai has a very efficient surveillance system that flies under the radar only because their competition is busy writing better code and doing actual privacy research. Tell Keonne and Willy Hilly that Vlad says hi.

Ken 🎋 2y ago

Since you pretend I don't understand Bitcoin nor chain analysis, without knowing anything about me, just based on your blind adoration for Nopara & friends, let me be clear too, and let's end this unproductive exchange.

Look fanboy, IDK if M. Saylor is a spook and i couldn't care less. Maybe he is. Cool. Haven't listened to your video on that, last time I watched you was a Wasabi promotional clown show with Peter Todd and I stopped there. Permanently.

I don't disagree, Samourai guys may very well be spooks.

I just say I don't care, because I understand their software & protocol enough. Including the nuances, tradeoffs, and the BS arguments from Wasabi team that you will surely repeat on loop, and I already heard 1000 times somewhere else.

But I'm not saying they're not spooks. I don't know that.

And I don't defend them, nor Saylor.

See? We don't disagree on everything!

What I say is that your replies are disingenuous and full of shit + condescendance, almost every line. The fact that Wasabi pays you generously has nothing to do with it, of course. You're just a fanboy who happens to be sponsored...

No comment...

It's fine, keep doing your thing, but don't be surprised when others call you out on this wasabi insanity. You may or may not be right about Samourai. But supporting chain surveillance is nuts. And a spook accusation coming from your corner, no matter who's your target, is laughable.

Citadel Dispatch, episode 15.

Everyone should go listen to that.

How did they fix the problem since then? Many improvements to their wallet (some good ones!), and... Partnership with chain surveillance. Yay!! 🤦‍♂️

"Privacy wallet"... Seriously... This is pathetic. 🤡

Other coinjoin protocols are sound, and don't need that type of partnership to operate. Are you saying JoinMarket is operated by NSA or something?

They also don't need crazy sponsoring budget to get people to use it and forget how clownish they've been all along. They pay nothing, they make no advertisement, yet people use their software. Maybe there's an actual reason, beyond the fantasies you tell yourself.

Keep writing if you like, I'm done. If, in a distant future, you wish to discuss all this in good faith, and not as a fanboy/employee of a surveillance firm contractor, I'll be happy to.

GN.

Vlad, Bitcoin Takeover Podcast 2y ago

You can rightfully call Wasabi wallet cowardly, but if you were in their position would you choose to go to jail like the Tornado Cash dev while being unable to pay the developers who work on building the future of privacy? As a matter of fact, are spooks ever concerned about going to jail or do they LARP 24/7 on Twitter about having created a wallet for the streets that’s perfect even though it collects the xpubs of users (I’m referring to Samourai here).

You also don’t understand how this works. Bitcoin is a public ledger, chain surveillance doesn’t need anyone to send them addresses because it’s all in the open. What CoinJoins do is to do large public transactions where the inputs are known, while the outputs become a more difficult guess.

What ZK Snacks did was to avoid “North Korea and human traffickers are using Wasabi” accusations by denying service to unwanted participants. They have no expertise in filtering, so they delegated the task to a company which already curates lists of addresses associated with crime.

When you own a blacklisted UTXO and try to join a CJ round, you get an error message on your screen. Wasabi, ZK Snacks & blockchain analysis can’t know who/where you are because they have no access to IP addresses (communications happen over Tor) or xpubs (Wasabi makes you download blocks so you don’t use somebody else’s node).

Blockchain analysis doesn’t get any kind of information that they didn’t already have.

The side effect of this controversial decision is that the volumes increased. Now exchanges can no longer accuse Wasabi CoinJoins of being potentially criminal. They might as well join some rounds too. So if you get into a Wasabi mix, you know that your coins are universally accepted.

I’m sorry that you got poisoned with misinformation and distorted facts. But in the spirit of Bitcoin, I’ll let you take a look at a Wasabi CoinJoin so you understand what it is and what it does: https://mempool.space/tx/13e6b17842c4aeee6f30642abb493f7eea0fcd809df9a35a83a3c364addb1ae3

Vlad, Bitcoin Takeover Podcast 2y ago

You can rightfully call Wasabi wallet cowardly, but if you were in their position would you choose to go to jail like the Tornado Cash dev while being unable to pay the developers who work on building the future of privacy? As a matter of fact, are spooks ever concerned about going to jail or do they LARP 24/7 on Twitter about having created a wallet for the streets that’s perfect even though it collects the xpubs of users (I’m referring to Samourai here).

You also don’t understand how this works. Bitcoin is a public ledger, chain surveillance doesn’t need anyone to send them addresses because it’s all in the open. What CoinJoins do is to do large public transactions where the inputs are known, while the outputs become a more difficult guess.

What ZK Snacks did was to avoid “North Korea and human traffickers are using Wasabi” accusations by denying service to unwanted participants. They have no expertise in filtering, so they delegated the task to a company which already curates lists of addresses associated with crime.

When you own a blacklisted UTXO and try to join a CJ round, you get an error message on your screen. Wasabi, ZK Snacks & blockchain analysis can’t know who/where you are because they have no access to IP addresses (communications happen over Tor) or xpubs (Wasabi makes you download blocks so you don’t use somebody else’s node).

Blockchain analysis doesn’t get any kind of information that they didn’t already have.

The side effect of this controversial decision is that the volumes increased. Now exchanges can no longer accuse Wasabi CoinJoins of being potentially criminal. They might as well join some rounds too. So if you get into a Wasabi mix, you know that your coins are universally accepted.

I’m sorry that you got poisoned with misinformation and distorted facts. But in the spirit of Bitcoin, I’ll let you take a look at a Wasabi CoinJoin so you understand what it is and what it does: https://mempool.space/tx/13e6b17842c4aeee6f30642abb493f7eea0fcd809df9a35a83a3c364addb1ae3

Vlad, Bitcoin Takeover Podcast 2y ago

You can rightfully call Wasabi wallet cowardly, but if you were in their position would you choose to go to jail like the Tornado Cash dev while being unable to pay the developers who work on building the future of privacy? As a matter of fact, are spooks ever concerned about going to jail or do they LARP 24/7 on Twitter about having created a wallet for the streets that’s perfect even though it collects the xpubs of users (I’m referring to Samourai here).

You also don’t understand how this works. Bitcoin is a public ledger, chain surveillance doesn’t need anyone to send them addresses because it’s all in the open. What CoinJoins do is to do large public transactions where the inputs are known, while the outputs become a more difficult guess.

What ZK Snacks did was to avoid “North Korea and human traffickers are using Wasabi” accusations by denying service to unwanted participants. They have no expertise in filtering, so they delegated the task to a company which already curates lists of addresses associated with crime.

When you own a blacklisted UTXO and try to join a CJ round, you get an error message on your screen. Wasabi, ZK Snacks & blockchain analysis can’t know who/where you are because they have no access to IP addresses (communications happen over Tor) or xpubs (Wasabi makes you download blocks so you don’t use somebody else’s node).

Blockchain analysis doesn’t get any kind of information that they didn’t already have.

The side effect of this controversial decision is that the volumes increased. Now exchanges can no longer accuse Wasabi CoinJoins of being potentially criminal. They might as well join some rounds too. So if you get into a Wasabi mix, you know that your coins are universally accepted.

I’m sorry that you got poisoned with misinformation and distorted facts. But in the spirit of Bitcoin, I’ll let you take a look at a Wasabi CoinJoin so you understand what it is and what it does: https://mempool.space/tx/13e6b17842c4aeee6f30642abb493f7eea0fcd809df9a35a83a3c364addb1ae3

Vlad, Bitcoin Takeover Podcast 2y ago

You can rightfully call Wasabi wallet cowardly, but if you were in their position would you choose to go to jail like the Tornado Cash dev while being unable to pay the developers who work on building the future of privacy? As a matter of fact, are spooks ever concerned about going to jail or do they LARP 24/7 on Twitter about having created a wallet for the streets that’s perfect even though it collects the xpubs of users (I’m referring to Samourai here).

You also don’t understand how this works. Bitcoin is a public ledger, chain surveillance doesn’t need anyone to send them addresses because it’s all in the open. What CoinJoins do is to do large public transactions where the inputs are known, while the outputs become a more difficult guess.

What ZK Snacks did was to avoid “North Korea and human traffickers are using Wasabi” accusations by denying service to unwanted participants. They have no expertise in filtering, so they delegated the task to a company which already curates lists of addresses associated with crime.

When you own a blacklisted UTXO and try to join a CJ round, you get an error message on your screen. Wasabi, ZK Snacks & blockchain analysis can’t know who/where you are because they have no access to IP addresses (communications happen over Tor) or xpubs (Wasabi makes you download blocks so you don’t use somebody else’s node).

Blockchain analysis doesn’t get any kind of information that they didn’t already have.

The side effect of this controversial decision is that the volumes increased. Now exchanges can no longer accuse Wasabi CoinJoins of being potentially criminal. They might as well join some rounds too. So if you get into a Wasabi mix, you know that your coins are universally accepted.

I’m sorry that you got poisoned with misinformation and distorted facts. But in the spirit of Bitcoin, I’ll let you take a look at a Wasabi CoinJoin so you understand what it is and what it does: https://mempool.space/tx/13e6b17842c4aeee6f30642abb493f7eea0fcd809df9a35a83a3c364addb1ae3

Ken 🎋 2y ago

On another topic, not sure if it's your client, mine, or relays, but threads are messed up in this discussion, from the very beginning.

Something to do with quoting I guess.

My reply was supposed to appear after your note below.

PV.

#[4]

Vlad, Bitcoin Takeover Podcast 2y ago

My client froze, I wasn’t sure if the “post” button was working so I pressed it multiple times 😅

Ken 🎋 2y ago

I don't see multiple posts. But the order is messed up...

No big deal 🙄

f3

Qno 2y ago

Jumping in here, I personally don't listen to Saylor because the couple of times I have he's come across as really angry. But then, so am I. But also I've seen some heavy censorship of the audience of one channel in particular that seems to be set up for fans of Saylor. And the sorts of things being blocked were not in any way disruptive - unless there's a narrative that must be maintained at all costs. Not sure what that is, but it's the only thing I can think of.

f3

Qno 2y ago

And what really strikes me is that bitcoin maximalists are being set up to put all - literally all - their wealth into bitcoin. The bit that got me banned was when I said we need to transact in bitcoin or it will lose its value at some point. If you can't spend it, nobody takes it, then it will be defacto worthless. Just suppose the entire structure is in fact set up for one monumental mother of all rugpulls... and they're waiting for the value to rise to, say one million, and then pull the rug. Now, wouldn't that be a pretty huge wealth transfer? We just need to take steps to make sure we are protected against that. The only solid rule in finance is and always has been do not put all eggs in one basket.

Vlad, Bitcoin Takeover Podcast 2y ago

You’ve committed the cardinal sin of showing signs of independent thinking. That’s dangerous, Qno 😂

Economics is all about supply and demand. Unless you create demand for your goods and services, it doesn’t matter how low and disinflationary the supply is. Other people won’t care and will hate you.

The best way to create Bitcoin adoption is not through force or promises of generational riches. It’s better to just tip or make small payments to reward people’s time and effort. They won’t fear it if they also have some and they won’t hate you for using it first since you shared it.

Gotta spread real grassroots adoption, this is why Bitcoin really exists.

f3

Qno 2y ago

Exactly. Well since the scamdemic I've been working at about 50% of my comfortable capacity. Some of my clients lost funding and talked about affordability. So I said, look, pay me in bitcoin. If they'd bought bitcoin one month ago and paid me with it today, I could charge my full fee and they would in fact save about 45% taking into account taxes, transaction charges as well. I can even save them more if they really need it, because I'm willing to bet on the value going up. So far I haven't had a single taker, which is baffling, really, but I have at least got some people now asking questions. One guy was happy to pay me for a couple of hours time to show him how a wallet works, how to buy bitcoin etc, which is encouraging. Soon this snowball will be an avalanche, I'm sure, now bank runs seem to be picking up pace.

Ken 🎋 2y ago

I have some problems with what Saylor said in the past.

His views regarding privacy, for example.

I don't follow him these days, no opinion.

Maybe he's a spook, maybe not... Doesn't matter to me. Because IMO Saylor is big enough to make some waves, but that's about it. #Bitcoin is bigger and DGAF.

Regarding your last point, and the rugpull scenario...

I don't see it. At all. At least not the way you describe it.

On the other hand, I totally see Lightning (and maybe a few other projects, but especially LN) being a great solution for spending, and scaling. TODAY.

I've got no problem with it, except for the fact that too many people use WoS TODAY. (Custodial). I believe this will improve.

And you can rugpull LN wallets all day, Bitcoin still doesn't care, long term.

I could be wrong, that's just a personal opinion.

On privacy projects collaborating with institutional spooks, which was my initial point, I'm quite confident I'm right: this is extremely fucked up. People promoting these schemes can't be taken seriously.

Just my 2 sats. Now people can think and do whatever they like ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

f3

Qno 2y ago

Some great points there.

WoS yep I only got it to zap sats. I treat it like the ashtray of my unlocked car, basically.

If there's a non-custodial LN wallet for zapping I'd like to know. I can't find one. Preferably if it can work on mobile or desktop, and better still if it can also do on-chain without silly rules and fees.

The rug-pull thing, I don't know how it would work. All I know is too many people still dependent on systems with points of failure. Taking funds is one thing, shutting down wallet servers for popular systems eg Ledger, Exodus etc is another possibility. All surmountable with a modicum of knowledge but most people would be stuck at least until they could phone a friend and considerable damage could be done in a few hours.

There are those who believe Bitcoin was built with backdoors we can't see, maybe even hiding in plain sight, who knows, and that at the end of this year there'll be a massive theft of everybody's holdings. I can't begin to judge that info or the quality of the source, but the reckoning was btc wouldn't disappear but would diminish hugely in value and importance. Me, I'm still betting heavily on it, because this is like WW2 and if only toasters come with guarantees.

f3

Qno 2y ago

Or maybe this will always be a niche thing, with us buying and selling from each other but never able to interact outside a relatively small loop. At that stage we'd get squeezed into a corner and it will be a brain drain as well as a wealth transfer. Some soi-dissant devs don't help matters much the way they act as if they are a superior race, with their in jokes etc but when you ask them to explain something they either hit you with jargon or take the piss. The way doctors once were I suppose.

f3

Qno 2y ago

That would be a kind of soft rug-pull. Just maroon us on a desert island with loads of treasure we can't actually use LOL!

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