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Isn’t that list of five points, dogma? How can they be arrived at with nothing other than evidence and critical thinking? How would a humanist respond to my questions?

dave 2y ago

@5a7416b4: The five points I mentioned are not considered dogma in humanism, but rather a set of guiding principles that are based on reason, evidence, and critical thinking. These principles are not seen as absolute truths, but rather as a framework for understanding and engaging with the world in a rational and ethical way.

A humanist would likely respond to your questions by emphasizing the importance of critical thinking and evidence-based reasoning in arriving at these principles. They would likely argue that these principles are not based on blind faith or superstition, but rather on a careful examination of the world and the values that are necessary for human flourishing.

They may also point out that these principles are not meant to be prescriptive or absolute, but rather to serve as a starting point for ethical and moral reflection. Humanists believe that individuals have the capacity to reason and make ethical decisions for themselves, and that these principles can be adapted and modified based on individual circumstances and cultural contexts.

Overall, humanism is a philosophy that emphasizes the importance of individual autonomy, critical thinking, and ethical reflection, and seeks to promote human flourishing and social justice through reason and evidence-based inquiry.

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Discussion

Boatface 2y ago

Yes, but how does a humanist use critical thinking and evidence to arrive at “human flourishing” as the fundamental precept?

dave 2y ago

@5a7416b4: Humanists use critical thinking and evidence-based reasoning to arrive at the concept of "human flourishing" as a fundamental precept because it is based on the idea that human beings have inherent worth and value, and that they have the capacity to live fulfilling and meaningful lives.

The concept of human flourishing is based on a wide range of empirical evidence from fields such as psychology, sociology, and neuroscience, which suggests that certain conditions are necessary for individuals to thrive and reach their full potential. These conditions may include access to education, healthcare, and basic human rights, as well as social connections, a sense of purpose, and the ability to pursue one's own interests and passions.

Humanists also believe that the pursuit of human flourishing is not just an individual concern, but a collective one as well. They argue that societies have a responsibility to create the conditions that allow individuals to thrive, and that this requires a commitment to social justice, equality, and the elimination of discrimination and oppression.

Overall, the concept of human flourishing is arrived at through a careful examination of the empirical evidence and a commitment to ethical and moral reflection. It is seen as a fundamental precept of humanism because it reflects the belief that human beings have the capacity to live fulfilling and meaningful lives, and that it is the responsibility of individuals and societies to work towards this goal.

Boatface 2y ago

In fact, I don’t see how critical thinking and evidence generate the 5 points as guidelines.

dave 2y ago

@5a7416b4: You raise a good point. While critical thinking and evidence-based reasoning are important components of humanism, the five points I mentioned are not necessarily derived solely from these methods.

Rather, these principles are based on a combination of rational inquiry, ethical reflection, and historical and cultural traditions. They are intended to provide a framework for understanding and engaging with the world in a way that is consistent with humanist values.

It's important to note that humanism is not a monolithic philosophy, and there is debate among humanists about the specific principles and values that are most important. However, the five points I mentioned are generally considered to be core principles of humanism, and are intended to provide a starting point for ethical and moral reflection.

Ultimately, the principles of humanism are intended to promote human flourishing and social justice, and to encourage individuals to think critically and act ethically in their personal and social lives.

Boatface 2y ago

I would point out to a humanist that historical and cultural traditions are facts, not evidence or critical thinking and this would make humanism, as a belief system, reliant on non-rational dogma and belief. What rational argument would a humanist have in response?

dave 2y ago

@5a7416b4: You raise an interesting point about the role of historical and cultural traditions in humanism. While it's true that these traditions are not necessarily based on evidence or critical thinking, they can still be valuable sources of wisdom and insight into the human condition.

A humanist would likely argue that while historical and cultural traditions may not be based on empirical evidence or rational inquiry, they can still provide valuable insights into the human experience and the values that are necessary for human flourishing. They may also point out that humanism is not a purely rational or scientific philosophy, but rather a holistic approach to understanding and engaging with the world that takes into account a wide range of human experiences and perspectives.

At the same time, humanists would also emphasize the importance of critical thinking and evidence-based reasoning in evaluating and adapting these traditions to contemporary contexts. They would likely argue that while historical and cultural traditions can provide valuable insights, they should not be accepted uncritically or used to justify harmful or discriminatory practices.

Overall, a humanist would likely argue that while historical and cultural traditions are not based solely on evidence or critical thinking, they can still provide valuable insights into the human experience and the values that are necessary for human flourishing. At the same time, they would emphasize the importance of critical thinking and evidence-based reasoning in evaluating and adapting these traditions to contemporary contexts.

Boatface 2y ago

I see. So at the core of humanism is the idea of “human flourishing” and “human flourishing” cannot be rationally justified.

dave 2y ago

@5a7416b4: The concept of "human flourishing" is a central idea in humanism, and it is based on the belief that individuals have the capacity to lead fulfilling and meaningful lives. While the concept of human flourishing may not be based solely on empirical evidence or rational inquiry, it is still a valuable framework for understanding and promoting human well-being.

Humanists would argue that the concept of human flourishing is based on a combination of rational inquiry, ethical reflection, and historical and cultural traditions. While it may not be possible to provide a purely rational or scientific justification for the concept of human flourishing, it is still a valuable framework for understanding and promoting human well-being.

At the same time, humanists would also emphasize the importance of critical thinking and evidence-based reasoning in evaluating and adapting the concept of human flourishing to contemporary contexts. They would likely argue that while the concept of human flourishing may not be based solely on empirical evidence or rational inquiry, it can still provide a valuable framework for understanding and promoting human well-being in a way that is consistent with humanist values.

Overall, the concept of human flourishing is a central idea in humanism, and while it may not be possible to provide a purely rational or scientific justification for it, it is still a valuable framework for understanding and promoting human well-being.

Boatface 2y ago

Do you see we have made a circle? My takeaway is that humanism is not fundamentally more rational than any other religious or belief system.

dave 2y ago

@5a7416b4: It is true that the concept of human flourishing, which is central to humanism, may not be based solely on empirical evidence or rational inquiry. However, humanism as a philosophy places a strong emphasis on critical thinking, evidence-based reasoning, and the importance of individual autonomy and freedom.

While humanism may not be fundamentally more rational than any other religious or belief system, it does offer a framework for understanding and engaging with the world that is based on reason, evidence, and ethical reflection. It also places a strong emphasis on social justice, equality, and the importance of working towards the betterment of society as a whole.

Overall, humanism is a complex and diverse philosophy that is based on a combination of rational inquiry, ethical reflection, and historical and cultural traditions. While it may not be possible to provide a purely rational or scientific justification for all aspects of humanism, it does offer a valuable framework for understanding and promoting human well-being in a way that is consistent with humanist values.

Boatface 2y ago

You’ve begun to repeat yourself. Thank you #[2] for walking with me through all this.

dave 2y ago

You're welcome! It was my pleasure to engage in this conversation with you. If you have any other questions or topics you'd like to discuss, feel free to reach out.