>> protonmail.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> > This cat and mouse game can be won by bitcoin defenders. Why ? Because
>> it is easier to detect these transactions and make them a standardization
>> rule than to create new types of spam transactions.
>>
>> One of the things discussed during the mempoolfullrbf discussion is that
>> a small (~10%) of nodes willing to relay a class of transaction is enough
>> for that class of transaction to consistently reach miners. That means you
>> would need to get nearly the entire network to run updated relay policy to
>> prevent inscriptions from trivially reaching miners and being included in
>> blocks. Inscription users have shown that they are willing and able to send
>> non-standard transactions to miners out of band (
>> https://mempool.space/tx/0301e0480b374b32851a9462db29dc19fe830a7f7d7a88b81612b9d42099c0ae),
>> so even if you managed to get enough of the network running the new rule to
>> prevent propagation to miners, those users can just go out of band. Or,
>> they can simply change the script that is used to embed an inscription in
>> the transaction witness. For example, instead of 0 OP_IF?, maybe they do 0
>> OP_DUP OP_DROP OP_IF. When the anti-inscription people detect this, they
>> have to update the rule and wait for 90%
>> + of the network to upgrade. When the pro-inscription people see this,
>> they only have to convince other inscription enthusiasts and businesses to
>> update.
>>
>> The anti-inscription patch has to be run by many more participants (most
>> of whom don?t care), while the pro-inscription update has to be run by a
>> small number of people who care a lot. It?s a losing battle for the
>> anti-inscription people.
>>
>> If you want to prevent inscriptions, the best answer we know of today is
>> economic: the cost of the blockspace needs to be more expensive than
>> inscribers are willing to pay, either because its too expensive or because
>> there?s no market demand for inscriptions. The former relies on Bitcoin
>> becoming more useful to more people, the latter is the natural course of
>> collectibles.
>>
>> > Finally, I would like to quote satoshi himself who wrote about spam
>> here is the link:
>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1617#msg1617
>>
>> Appeals to Satoshi are not compelling arguments.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Rijndael
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 2:04 PM, L?o Haf via bitcoin-dev <[
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org](mailto:On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at
>> 2:04 PM, L?o Haf via bitcoin-dev < wrote:
>>
>> > ?According to you, the rules of standardization are useless but in this
>> case why were they introduced? The opreturn limit can be circumvented by
>> miners, yet it is rare to see any, the same for maxancestorcount,
>> minrelayfee or even the dust limit.
>> >
>> > This cat and mouse game can be won by bitcoin defenders. Why ? Because
>> it is easier to detect these transactions and make them a standardization
>> rule than to create new types of spam transactions.
>> >
>> > As for the default policy, it can be a weakness but also a strength
>> because if the patch is integrated into Bitcoin Core by being activated by
>> default, the patch will become more and more effective as the nodes update.
>> >
>> > Also, when it came to using a pre-segwit node, it is not a solution
>> because this type of node cannot initiate new ones, which is obviously a
>> big problem.
>> >
>> > Finally, I would like to quote satoshi himself who wrote about spam
>> here is the link:
>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1617#msg1617
>> >
>> >> Le 27 juil. 2023 ? 07:10, vjudeu at gazeta.pl a ?crit :
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> ?
>> >
>> >>> not taking action against these inscription could be interpreted by
>> spammers as tacit acceptance of their practice.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> Note that some people, even on this mailing list, do not consider
>> Ordinals as spam:
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-February/021464.html
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> See? It was discussed when it started. Some people believe that
>> blocking Ordinals is censorship, and could lead to blocking regular
>> transactions in the future, just based on other criteria. That means, even
>> if developers would create some official version with that option, then
>> some people would not follow them, or even block Ordinals-filtering nodes,
>> exactly as described in the linked thread:
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-February/021487.html
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >>> as spammers might perceive that the Bitcoin network tolerates this
>> kind of behavior
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> But it is true, you have the whole pages, where you can find images,
>> files, or other data, that was pushed on-chain long before Ordinals. The
>> whole whitepaper was uploaded just on 1-of-3 multisig outputs, see
>> transaction
>> 54e48e5f5c656b26c3bca14a8c95aa583d07ebe84dde3b7dd4a78f4e4186e713. You have
>> the whole altcoins that are connected to Bitcoin by using part of the
>> Bitcoin's UTXO set as their database.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> That means, as long as you won't solve IBD problem and UTXO set
>> growing problem, you will go nowhere, because if you block Ordinals
>> specifically, people won't learn "this is bad, don't do that", they could
>> read it as "use the old way instead", as long as you won't block all
>> possible ways. And doing that, requires for example creating new nodes,
>> without synchronizing non-consensus data, like it could be done in "assume
>> UTXO" model.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> Also note that as long as people use Taproot to upload a lot of data,
>> you can still turn off the witness, and become a pre-Segwit node. But if
>> you block those ways, then people will push data into legacy parts, and
>> then you will need more code to strip it correctly. The block 774628 maybe
>> contains almost 4 MB of data from the perspective of Segwit node, but the
>> legacy part is actually very small, so by turning witness off, you can
>> strip it to maybe just a few kilobytes.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >>> I want to emphasize that my proposal does not involve implementing a
>> soft fork in any way. On the contrary, what I am asking is simply to
>> consider adding a standardization option. This option would allow the
>> community to freely decide whether it should be activated or not.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> 1. Without a soft-fork, those data will be pushed by mining pools
>> anyway, as it happened in the block 774628.
>> >
>> >> 2. Adding some settings won't help, as most people use the default
>> configuration. For example, people can configure their nodes to allow free
>> transactions, without recompiling anything. The same with disabling dust
>> amounts. But good luck finding a node in the wild that does anything
>> unusual.
>> >
>> >> 3. This patch produced by Luke Dashjr does not address all cases. You
>> could use "OP_TRUE OP_NOTIF" instead of "OP_FALSE OP_IF" used by Ordinals,
>> and easily bypass those restrictions. This will be just a cat and mouse
>> game, where spammers will even use P2PK, if they will be forced to. The
>> Pandora's box is already opened, that fix could be good for February or
>> March, but not now.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >>> On 2023-07-26 11:47:09 user leohaf at orangepill.ovh wrote:
>> >
>> >>> I understand your point of view. However, inscription represent by
>> far the largest spam attack due to their ability to embed themselves in the
>> witness with a fee reduction.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> Unlike other methods, such as using the op_return field which could
>> also be used to spam the chain, the associated fees and the standardization
>> rule limiting op_return to 80 bytes have so far prevented similar abuses.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> Although attempting to stop inscription could lead to more serious
>> issues, not taking action against these inscription could be interpreted by
>> spammers as tacit acceptance of their practice. This could encourage more
>> similar spam attacks in the future, as spammers might perceive that the
>> Bitcoin network tolerates this kind of behavior.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> I want to emphasize that my proposal does not involve implementing a
>> soft fork in any way. On the contrary, what I am asking is simply to
>> consider adding a standardization option. This option would allow the
>> community to freely decide whether it should be activated or not.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >>>> Le 26 juil. 2023 ? 07:30, vjudeu at gazeta.pl a ?crit :
>> >
>> >>>> and I would like to understand why this problem has not been
>> addressed more seriously
>> >
>> >>> Because if nobody has any good solution, then status quo is
>> preserved. If tomorrow ECDSA would be broken, the default state of the
>> network would be "just do nothing", and every solution would be
>> backward-compatible with that approach. Burn old coins, and people will
>> call it "Tether", redistribute them, and people will call it "BSV". Leave
>> everything untouched, and the network will split into N parts, and then you
>> pick the strongest chain to decide, what should be done.
>> >
>> >>>> However, when it comes to inscriptions, there are no available
>> options except for a patch produced by Luke Dashjr.
>> >
>> >>> Because the real solution should address some different problem, that
>> was always there, and nobody knows, how to deal with it: the problem of
>> forever-growing initial blockchain download time, and forever-growing UTXO
>> set. Some changes with "assume UTXO" are trying to address just that, but
>> this code is not yet completed.
>> >
>> >>>> So, I wonder why there are no options to reject inscriptions in the
>> mempool of a node.
>> >
>> >>> Because it will lead you to never ending chase. You will block one
>> inscriptions, and different ones will be created. Now, they are present
>> even on chains, where there is no Taproot, or even Segwit. That means, if
>> you try to kill them, then they will be replaced by N regular
>> indistinguishable transactions, and then you will go back to those more
>> serious problems under the hood: IBD time, and UTXO size.
>> >
>> >>>> Inscriptions are primarily used to sell NFTs or Tokens, concepts
>> that the Bitcoin community has consistently rejected.
>> >
>> >>> The community also rejected things like sidechains, and they are
>> still present, just in a more centralized form. There are some unstoppable
>> concepts, for example soft-forks. You cannot stop a soft-fork. What
>> inscription creators did, is just non-enforced soft-fork. They believe
>> their rules are followed to the letter, but this is not the case, as you
>> can create a valid Bitcoin transaction, that will be some invalid Ordinals
>> transaction (because their additional rules are not enforced by miners and
>> nodes).
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