The problem is due to the erosion of the meaning of words and the aggressive labeling of every single group in the world (and I consider this something that both sides engage in) that the definition itself depends upon words that no longer carry meaning.

Words like “right-wing” have no meaning because the “right” is nothing like the “right” historically and they stand for nothing. You could slice the population into segments separated by the decade of birth, and every group would have a completely different definition of “democrat” and “republican,” “left-wing” and “right-wing.” Even worse, someone who is classically liberal can be labeled “right-wing” and “fascist” for being pro-life, even though they are pro-legalization of drugs, pro-lgbtq rights, and pro-social assistance.

Definition two is modern, and an attempt to associate people with someone like Stalin, which is bad faith and I will always reject it.

I see this as no different or any less bad than people referring to modern democrats as “socialists” or even “communists.” It’s wrong both technically and morally to attempt to associate those with whom you disagree with mass murderers, unless they are going around killing 10’s of thousands of people unprovoked.

It is far too easy to say you stand against a vague, anamorphic cloud of an idea than to name the person and the specific policy you are against. Virtue signaling without taking any risk of being required to back it up.

“I have a problem with X leader because of Y policy which is bad because Z” opens up the floor to discussion, debate, and either being proven true or false. “Stand against fascism” does not.

Nuance by its very definition requires specificity, and jargon culture is very much an influential part of the shit show politics has become.

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The best definition of right wing vs left wing, that I find easiest to understand, is essentially the battle between order vs chaos, extropy vs entropy, creation vs destruction.

The issue with right & left is that they are subjective and depend on perspective. A right-wing in France wants to conserve the current institution which is very collective in nature.

Fascism is extreme nationalism used to create military citizens usually for the purpose of war. Previously a cult of personality has been used to guide the us vs them mentality and remove the need for mercenaries.

I believe Doog was right at a point in the past, and that’s certainly how I learned the term. I now refer to these as “classical liberalism/conservatism” because it does not represent current political parties. Both sides are equally as chaotic and as authoritarian.

Your definition of fascism is also a more historical one, and I believe more accurate. In Stalin’s own words:

“The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State – a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values – interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people.

Fascism is a religious conception in which man is seen in his immanent relationship with a superior law and with an objective Will that transcends the particular individual and raises him to conscious membership of a spiritual society. Whoever has seen in the religious politics of the Fascist regime nothing but mere opportunism has not understood that Fascism besides being a system of government is also, and above all, a system of thought.”

Unfortunately, I’m going to have to ride with my boy George Orwell on how the word is used now:

“...the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else ... Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathisers, almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come.”

To be clear, I also subscribe to Orwell's definition when it comes to the word fascist as it is currently used.

I was just saying when trying to conceptualize the fundamental struggle between right vs left, I found the definitions I stated to be the most helpful to me. As a tangent to your larger point.

đź’Ż

Makes sense to me.

Yup

It seems Orwell would have been predicted this thread. Maybe because we see it so much easier than the general public, but our words have no meaning anymore.