Subnostr

Appeals to the idea that "scripture has been corrupted" are often more convenient than convincing. Scripture is clear that the church is more than just a "get together," that certain functions are to be performed "in the household of God" (see 2 Timothy) which include the reading and preaching of Scripture, prayer, offerings, and the sacraments--even discipline, when necessary. To say that this doesn't happen perfectly everywhere and by everyone--and therefore the entire concept must be jettisoned--is to be unfaithful to Scripture on the other side.

Our heavenly Father didn't kick off the church in Acts and then leave to our own devices. He has been superintending our growth and maturity ever since--through various controversies we have clarified what we believe (according to Scriptures). He has given us fathers and brothers in the faith who were of great help not only to their contemporaries, but to all succeeding generations as well. He gave them to "the church"--through all time. It is immature to remake the church de novo every generation or to try to stay in "kindergarten" by returning to the first century church--we've grown up a lot since then and, I pray, will continue to grow until "all reach maturity." Jesus didn't mean in that passage "you will not have any leaders" but that "this is the *kind* of leaders you must be in my kingdom" -- which is why our chief pastor-teachers are called "Minister" -- which means, servant. That the early church was led by a plurality of elders--and that this was prescriptive, not merely descriptive--is also clear. Paul commanded that elders be ordained in every city. They keep watch over the people, and the teaching--and even settle disputes between believers (instead of going before the courts of the heathen).

I know, I konw...we're not going to agree. 🙂 We've had similar back-and-forths on other matters. But I hope you'll consider the depth and richness that has come down to us through the faithful channels of Christ's church--specifically, those that judge everything according to Scripture (i.e., Western, Protestant, Reformed, and Presbyterian). 😉 I lived for a very, very long time in the "No creed but Christ!" and "Just me and Jesus" and "red-letters only!" kind of "churches". There is more--far more--and it is deep, rich, and for our good...

Duncan Cary Palmer 1y ago

Brother, as always, I appreciate your interaction.🙏🏻😀

> "I know, I know...we're not going to agree. 🙂 We've had similar back-and-forths on other matters."

It's not so much agreement I seek; my motivation is more along the lines of the proverbial "iron sharpening iron" and "stirring one another up to love and good works." I have learned, and expect to *continue* to learn from you; and I hope that--even far short of agreement--something I say may result in your drawing closer to our LORD and his logos...😀

It's clear from your response that--as is so often the case--I have failed to be completely clear, or have left impressions that are misunderstandings of my actual "position" on one or more things.

> "...To say that this doesn't happen perfectly everywhere and by everyone--and therefore the entire concept must be jettisoned--is to be unfaithful to Scripture..."

I'm NOT saying that there is/has been no value in "conventional" churches as we know them. Though Israel REJECTED God from being King over them, even in their apostasy God continued to work through them to accomplish his purposes. It is obvious that likewise, God continues to work through his church everywhere, such as it is...

However, I AM saying--listen to Jesus--"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline. Therefore be zealous and repent." It's high time for all churches everywhere to take a very hard look at themselves; how much is the aggregate accumulation of the turbulent drag of the barnacles of "traditions of men" slowing the advancement of the Kingdom? I perceive that drag to be HUGE.

> "Appeals to the idea that "scripture has been corrupted" are often more convenient than convincing."

Have you read any of my appeals in the above archive? Some have found them convincing. I'm no great scholar; I recognize my intellectual frailty and failures; but so many of the observations I've personally made and continue to make are so blatantly OBVIOUS on their face that they cry out for attention; I grow weary of knee-jerk dismissiveness based on naught but "appeal to centuries of ecclesiastical authority."

> "...certain functions are to be performed "in the household of God""

That's actually another great metaphor (in addition to the body). Also the temple/building metaphor... Just, God help us, *save us* from the top-down, hierarchical, "Western, Protestant, Reformed, and Presbyterian" rigid, Robert's Rules of Order, boardroom models that have taken over the church! We are a household, head of which is our "Blessed and ONLY Sovereign." Some of our doctrines and praxis are WRONG, or at the very least, counterproductive.

For crying out loud, in Presby congregations I've been part of in days gone by, not only was there a *pulpit*, but it was 100% off-limits to anyone who hadn't gone through the entire "ordination" machine... Now, there's a corruption of scriptural "one-anothers." I'm getting a little emotional here; sorry. The last "Presbyterian-flavor" congregation we were part of is one I ended up leaving after being told that I was FORBIDDEN to as much as carry on a PRIVATE CONVERSATION with other members in which issues such as the one we are presently discussing were raised...😳

> "Jesus didn't mean in that passage "you will not have any leaders" but that "this is the *kind* of leaders you must be in my kingdom" -- which is why our chief pastor-teachers are called "Minister" -- which means, servant."

The sad truth in most "structured," modern congregations I've ever been part of or heard of or read about, "servant leadership" is nothing more than a platitude. If you've truly experienced otherwise, God bless you; you are in a tiny and blessed minority.

The reality is that many, if not most, church members (often FORMER church members) are victims of "church hurt," and I lay much of the blame for that at the feet of the way churches are structured and run in the mold of the nations/gentiles/world.

OK, I've vented a bit here; but I've come to see you as one who is gracious, and I absolutely treasure your willingness to push back and call me out when your BS detector fires...😜🤣😆🫂

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