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that thing about jesus being trained by wise men and the utter lack of any detail about it between age 12 and the commencement of his ministry is so suspect with regard to the appropriate selection of texts that was made at the Council of Nicaea.

half of the most famous things he said were straight out of Enoch and if not, Tao Te Ching, both of which were known to exist and probably be available somewhere in that time.

the red flag for me is this: if Jesus is God, then why did he have to go to school?

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fc994dc4... 1mo ago

Interesting, if those ideas are true the west can reconcile and learn from the east.

The Beave 1mo ago

Because that's what He was supposed to do, culturally. He also was learning his trade, carpentry. Those take time. Yes, He is God, but he lived as human fully, too.

It's actually amusing because in several accounts I've read of people who have interacted directly with evil spiritual forces, they deride Jesus by calling Him "The Carpenter." (They refuse to say His name or most other titles ascribed to Him.)

So, I don't really find the story jump all that disturbing, though it would be interesting to know more about His younger years, though, the possibility remains strong that it was so boring or typical to most that it just wasn't bothered to be written, like so much else that the writers, especially of the OT, assumed their audience knew.

Also, of course Jesus knew parts of the book of Enoch. There were probably few Israelites at the time that didn't. The fact that it was preserved so well in the dead sea scroll caches is testament to that.

I'm very curious as to if there is any scholarship on the wisdom books of The East having made the long and complicated trip to the Near East or other parts of the Roman Empire and were also translated to local languages. That's not something I've ever heard, but that's not very surprising since I've never thought about checking that out.

7fqx 1mo ago

Was curious what Ancient Faith's Whole Council of God says about this.

I've not started at the beginning of this podcast series (it starts with the Gospels, but I've started at Genesis).

Approx 24 mins in:

https://media.ancientfaith.com/wholecounsel/wcg_2017-02-13.mp3

7fqx 1mo ago

This starts with the 'missing years' subject.

The Whole Counsel of God: Luke, Chapter 3

Episode webpage: https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/wholecounsel/luke_chapter_3/

Media file: https://media.ancientfaith.com/wholecounsel/wcg_2017-02-20.mp3

NOSTRikli 1mo ago

I’ve been thinking of it this way:

It is a mystery and the only way to experience God is through faith and the life that results from that faith. Reason/thinking can’t get us there.

Jesus was also fully human and humans have to learn and grow. So he went through a process of discovery.

If a major component of original sin is anxiety, Jesus had none. He replaced it with perfect faith. Over time, he discovered that he was the only begotten. Maybe he looked back on his life and only then realized that he always knew.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

do you categorise inspiration as thinking or a gift from God?

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

the unstated assumption in your statement is that somehow, being curious and asking questions and making experiments is an offense against God.

i assert that this is a fallacious equation of logic that was inserted into christianity to poison it to become a justification for absolute dictatorship of moral codes and cultural activity. it is the most deeply hidden and pernicious conditioning implemented by almost all christian sects since the inception of the catholic church, and if you didn't know about any of the cases of catholics genociding people, go do some research on the essenes.

idk why anyone believes that somehow former roman plutocrats gave a damn about Jesus or the welfare of the people.

NOSTRikli 1mo ago

Forgive me but I don’t see how being curious, asking questions and making experiments are offenses against God.

Churches are human institutions that can be corrupted. One issue I have with the Roman Catholic Church is that they suggest the pope is infallible.

Finrod Felagund 1mo ago

If it’s a gift or not is of little importance to me, but I know it does come from God. We’ve known this since the days of Ancient Egypt.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

the idea that any human institution, and human-managed verification of documents, is immune to the same errors that these same things have in every other area, make the lie of the Word of God doctrine.

Jesus didn't say to test the spirits for nothing. that includes asking questions, receiving answers, and doing the research to prove the hypothesis.

real problems that affect our lives don't go away without investigation, diagnosis, and countermeasures. this prohibition from institutional authority is purely, and simply, a defense against factual data becoming known that delegitimises the authority in the minds of the people. that's why they burned these people at the stake. most of them were literally just folk doctors.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

the spanish aristocracy's penchant for fascist totalitarianism has not changed one iota in over a thousand years.

it's a country that has never interested me to visit, personally.

Finrod Felagund 1mo ago

I can understand almost genealogically why you feel this way.

Spain despite being considered a bête noire is still a very interesting case to think about it.

It’s a perfect case study of how a declining aristocracy turns into tyranny when its defenders cannot argue for it in face of its attackers. Which, mind you, I don’t consider to be automatically a bad thing.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

true. it may actually reflect on the spirit of the people to be prone to rebellion, that excessive force is required to contain it.

idk what people are like on the iberian peninsula, but the farmers out here on madeira are certainly quite stubborn folk.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

oh yeah it's also notable that the Fatima apparition event is very important to iberian catholics, which is somewhat at odds with Rome

Finrod Felagund 1mo ago

I’d like to also note the rocky relationship between the Vatican and Opus Dei.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

oh, i knew this word, from the Samuel Barber (i think) no, maybe that Agnus Dei (Lamb of God). hah, this is Opus Dei that i know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB9lObWclFQ

i thought the name of the branch that operates in portugal that it's about Fatima.

and yeah, i dig the vibes of the madeiran catholics. just not my thing.

Finrod Felagund 1mo ago

I’m talking about a catholic institute mostly based in Spain called Opus Dei (the Work of God in latin), that aims at linking catholic laymen together from different professions and walks of life and foster a community between them where they help each other. Opus Dei provides means to help achieve this goal. Some of their members were ministers in Franco’s government in Spain. I invite you to read more about it, it’s quite interesting.

And their relationship with the Vatican knows its ups and downs.

Finrod Felagund 1mo ago

From the few iberians I met and befriended for a while, they’re stubborn and they always competed with us frenchmen that they know how to protest and riot better than us.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

yeah, i get the whiff of that with most of the portuguese i have met so far. passionate and fierce people.

the differences between cultures is so fascinating. bulgarians, and serbs, they also compete with each other, on the west they are very cranky and irritable, so much so that the bulgarian word for serb is related to the word for "irritable" or "itchy", and the serbs love to emphasize their eliding of the L from the name to call them "boo-gars" and yes, actually, this is a reference to the Bogomil cult, which was a weird christian sect that practises, essentially, swinging. the bulgarians are very obsequious and taciturn, and were a huge problem for the ottomans because of their habits built from so many imperial occupations, from the byzantines, to the austro-hungarians and the ottomans, and today, the clandestine opposition to brussels is very easy to see if you just ask random bulgarians what they think of the EU.

Finrod Felagund 1mo ago

Well yes of course: to not think, to not investigate, to not question would be to waste this gift from God, so to speak. And that brings us closer to blasphemy.

And from this intellectual exercise, one goes into practice. From thesis to praxis thus incarnating “love of wisdom” as a way of life.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

in my own study and questions, i always seek to find the thesis that fits the whole pattern better than the old thesis. blasphemy is where you are questioning what you should know better to be settled. like 1+1=3 this is the work of the devil.

Finrod Felagund 1mo ago

Ignore the emoji reaction, I meant to click this 🤝

NOSTRikli 1mo ago

I suppose all thinking is a gift from God. I imagine that wholistic, right brain thinking can feel like it came from outside of ourselves when it didn’t. I also think ideas can enter our consciousness via mechanisms other than the physical senses or cerebral function. Sometimes that looks like inspiration.

Lucian 1mo ago

Faith is belief, another cage.

God is the unknown; thought creates the image.

Jesus or you - see without the “I.”

No sin, no savior: only this.

lkraider 1mo ago

Ok Arius

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

i presume you are accusing me of blasphemy.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

i don't just question the supernatural being claim on Jesus either. Same for the angels. Holy Spirit and God the Creator i believe are supernatural, and beyond our and any universe. but the rest are just mangled and twisted stories for obvious agendas.

i do, however, believe that Jesus (who says clearly in revelation's last chapter) is the Most High, the Morning Star. Exactly as your catholic bible's last book and last chapter literally says. that means he is an angel, the king of the host, and that is only different to the catholic by that one point about his origins.

Mohammed's text clearly claims that there was some kind of likely artificial insemination performed on Mary, and that the seed was provided for this from the prior holder of this title. This is why they also don't have the A=B logic in their claims about Him. they do, however, regard him as above Mohammed in his reverence in their beliefs, however. which also fits, it's an archangel.

lkraider 1mo ago

I mean, read the Ecumenical Councils first, and leave the gnostic shit for later, it will only mislead you without the grounding.