So far I’m with you. I guess for clarity sake, I’d have to ask you how you’d define state legitimacy. I can answer that all authority comes from Christ.
Discussion
Here's my summary statement. The state has power but no legitimate authority.
Nation states are in fact powers foreign to the Kingdom of God, and they are all, every last one, under the control of Satan and his demonic minions.
We, on the other hand, are a separate and distinct holy nation that happens to be sojourning among these nation-states. We are ambassadors of King Jesusc representing his Kingdom to the nations, and should remain separate and distinct from them in that role.
This does, of course, widely diverge from the Reformation view of Kuyperian "sphere sovereignty," which sees the nations of the world as "civil government" and as a legitimate form of government.
In strong contrast to that, I believe that the New Testament is actually a handbook for government, and that it clearly teaches that Jesus as King rules the entire world through the agency of his independent self-sovereign ecclesias, scattered throughout the inhabited earth. He is in the process of destroying all those rebellious nation-states (Psalm 2, Daniel 2, 1 Corinthians 15) as he draws out his remnant into independent, 100% voluntary assemblies under his direct control; i.e., the distributed, decentralized "cells" of his body that is his present presence on earth.😃
I appreciate the lengthy and descriptive response. I have a lot of questions lol. Sorry for the delay in my response.
-Doesn’t Jesus have ALL authority though? Even over the demonic powers that be? If that’s the case, then the nation states are the right hand (punishing evil doers) of power (delegated by Christ) of the people of said nation?
-I obviously hold to a Kuyperian theology as far as the three forms of government go( Church, family and state). Which is believe is mainly taught throughout scriptures. In which I agree with you as they are distinct and separate but under the umbrella of Christ’s ultimate authority.
I think from what I hear you saying is that word, “legitimate”. Am I correct?
No doubt Christ is putting his enemies under his feet, and I think that’s through the proclamation of His word going out and saving His elect.
Hi again, Brother!
>I appreciate the lengthy and descriptive response. I have a lot of questions lol. Sorry for the delay in my response.
No worries! I appreciate your willingness to engage in a conversation, and the interval between messages is not that important. You ask great questions.
>-Doesn’t Jesus have ALL authority though? Even over the demonic powers that be?
Yes, he has absolute power over all things.
>If that’s the case, then the nation states are the right hand (punishing evil doers) of power (delegated by Christ) of the people of said nation?
This has been the traditional interpretation, but I do not see biblical support for it. All secular and biblical historical evidence shows the nation-states to be in unmitigated rebellion against God and against his Anointed King Jesus. This is quite the opposite of being in submission to King Jesus and carrying out his will. While nation-states *ought* to be "punishing the evil and praising the good" they are doing the opposite: https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/this-is-not-that-a-comment-on-romans-13
The idea that Jesus "delegates" his authority to nation-states is unbiblical. In the very first chapter of the bible, God gave man dominion over creation; not over his fellow man. 1 Samuel chapter 8--among other passages--makes it quite clear that human rule is a concession God has made to man's rebellion against God's rule. This concession is a punishment for disloyalty to the "blessed and only sovereign" (1 Timothy 6:15), Jesus, who is the only one with a right to rule by virtue of the fact that he is our Creator. This human lust to rule and be ruled is spoken of in the scriptures as the "spirit of antichrist." In Greek, "anti" means "in place of." Every human who arrogates to themselves rulership over fellow humans is putting themselves in the place of Jesus; thus, they are anti-Christ.
> -I obviously hold to a Kuyperian theology as far as the three forms of government go( Church, family and state). Which is believe is mainly taught throughout scriptures. In which I agree with you as they are distinct and separate but under the umbrella of Christ’s ultimate authority.
I must again respectfully disagree; the scriptural view is TWO forms of government; that which is obedient to God and that which is in opposition; i.e. the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of satan. Ephesians chapter one emphatically tells us that Jesus rules the universe through the agency of his ecclesia (church), which *is* his body on earth.
> I think from what I hear you saying is that word, “legitimate”. Am I correct?
The English word "authority" has connotations of legitimacy that are absent in Greek... God has allowed nation-states "power" for a time; this does *not* mean he has delegated "authorization" or legitimate "authority" to them.
Much, perhaps *most* of the confusion and error in traditional church teaching stems from bad translations of the original languages of scripture. My considered opinion is that these poor translations have not occurred accidentally; I've written extensively on the topic in this collection:
https://peakd.com/library/@creatr/the-curmudgeon-s-bible-my-library-shelf
This article is perhaps my most concise statement of these observations about words:
https://peakd.com/conspiracy/@creatr/political-power-and-the-connotation-conspiracy
Even in our present discussion, our ability to understand each other is hampered by the connotations of English words that do not adequately represent the primary meaning of the original Greek; specifically, these words: authority, power, nation(s), ruler, Christ, and the phrase "powers that be."
Thanks for your questions and discussion.🙏🏻😆👍