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Up until now I never read a good explanation of what DC is.

LN certainly has its issues. The idea of locking Bitcoins to transact with Bitcoin seems ridiculous. And so I am not a 100% convinced it will be the future.

But at least for what we have now seems like it’s doing ok.

The worst the LN can do is everyone closes shop, and all the coins go back to their owners.

Opt in or out. DriveChain is irreversible. Let Lightning crash and burn first, then we will go back to DC.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Firstly, Dc is also “Opt in”. It’s a soft fork so those who run the software will only notice its existence. Everyone can continue running bitcoin core with BIP300 and still have the same experience. It’s not irreversible it’s possible reverse the soft fork if bitcoin core, node runners, community, miners decide its shit.

Basically, Drivechain is made up of two BIPs. BIP300 which is hash rate escrow and BIP301 is blind merge mining. All is require is add a simple opcode to bitcoin core called OP_DRIVECHAIN that counts to 13000 blocks.

Very low level, Drivechain enables a bitcoin sidechains/L2s by creating a 2 way peg in and out of sidechains where miners earn transaction fees for executing the transactions on sidechains/L2s.

Why do this?

Well you can keep bitcoin mainchain/L1 this pristine layer 1 which secure and decentralised with 21 Million cap.

But you get all the functionality and scalability you can imagine on L2s using BTC as the native currency of these sidechains. No shitcoins. It also allows devs to be more innovate and experiment on L2s without changing mainchain/L1 ever again.

What kind of functionality would be useful?

imo a Monero or Cash privacy sidechain/L2 would be very useful with much better privacy and much more userfriendly than conjoin services today.

A scalable focused payments sidechain/L2 thats makes self custody payments scalable to 8 billion people and userfriendly. A EVM style sidechain/L2 that allows for DeFi, financial applications and prediction markets would be cool on bitcoin but comes with smart contract risks of course. Every cool feature can be brought to bitcoin layer 2s by simply cloning the code of altcoins.

I think this would also kill all altcoins in time. As there is no excuse for devs to build on altcoins anymore.

Of course, the miners make a shit tonne of money to secure the network from the sidechains. Making even harder and more expensive for bad actors to 51% attack the bitcoin network. Users get what they want. Devs get to build cool toys.

Let the free market do its thing. Thats Drivechain in nutshell imo.

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Discussion

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

*without

B.O.P 2y ago

See, that’s the interesting thing with this is that it will basically absorb the shitcoins to the bitcoin network, we get monero level privacy while also improving fees for miners and maintaining highest hash POW/security budget. As bitcoin matures I think it’s crucial that we incentivize mining at an individual level as well making it profitable for retail to mine. With more fees on L1 comes higher profitability.

My questions:

for those who do want to hold bitcoin on the L1 does this not make fees even higher to transfer in/out to cold storage?

Also, since this is a soft fork does this not open Bitcoin up to a larger attack surface at the L1?

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

From my level of technical understanding L1 is unaffected.

Everyone will still be able to run a L1 node and mine BTC.

Using BIP301 they can mine bitcoin sidechains.

If large mining pools do become captured by the state like Foundry reject mining of certain sidechains like privacy ones then thats where the plebs can have an edge mining privacy coins over KYC compliant Mining companies on the big stock exchanges.

Its very difficult to know how it would play out. With or Without Drivechain Mining pools becoming centralised is definitely a concern. Our only hope is the plebs can build tools/hardware to make home mining cheaper for plebs.

B.O.P 2y ago

If L1 is unaffected how are miners on L1 now doing work/getting fees for an L2 though “similar to an LSP” to summarize as you previously mentioned? I guess I have some reading up to do to really form an opinion.

TKay 2y ago

nostr:npub1s33sw6y2p8kpz2t8avz5feu2n6yvfr6swykrnm2frletd7spnt5qew252p is going to give us all a hard lesson on YouTube in a couple of days. 😅😅😅

TKay 2y ago

Please don’t make us all look like fools 🤣🤣

B.O.P 2y ago

Lmaooo I didn’t realize he was still tagged in this chain. Sorry Matt, I’m clearly still learning here being in Bitcoin for 6 years now

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Lol I had no idea either. Be funny if he makes a video about this thread.

TKay 2y ago

I believe Matt already covered Deivechain. So we might get a pass. 😅

kidwarp 2y ago

In my opinion dc are just a revisit to colored coins.

Guess what we don’t use them now either.

🤷🏻‍♂️

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I think colored coins were shitcoins like a new tokesn were issued.

Whereas drivechain sidechains are just pegged BTC on layer 2. The native currency BTC.

kidwarp 2y ago

No you locked bitcoin up to make colored coins.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Doesnt Bisq have coloured coin used for governance on its p2p exchange?

Its not BTC, I am pretty sure its a different token. I could be wrong.

kidwarp 2y ago

Only use bisq for btc & xmr

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

https://bisq.wiki/BSQ

One difference for sure is that coloured coins are issued on Bitcoin mainchain/L1. This is not scalable or efficient way to use bitcoin blockchain.m

kidwarp 2y ago

My apologies colored coins are made from bitcoin transactions.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

No worries. It’s been a few years since I checked. I forgotten to how they work.

If bitcoiners want to shitcoin they can use Ordinals, Inscriptions, BRC20 tokens, Taproot Assets on LN, Original Pepe bitcoin NFTs, Tokens on Rootstock, Tokens on Liquid, Tokens on RGB etc.

Bitcoiners are not interested in shitcoins for the most part.

I personally dont think DC is going to create a shitcoin casino. I think it will actually enable useful features, market places and apps for bitcoiners.

kidwarp 2y ago

You kinda just proved my point why we don’t need drive chains.

Look at all the tools built already & we don’t use them.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I believe we dont use them because they are dog shit tools lol with so many limitations.

They are either centralised, federated, require custodians, and very slow/expensive to use with bad UX.

B.O.P 2y ago

That’s my thought.. everyone was talking about Liquid this way years ago and now we have it and do nothing with it

kidwarp 2y ago

Still not sure why we haven’t lifted the block size or done Segwitx2 at least

Just flip a switch & lower fees make more room for whatever type of transactions to collect more fees for the miners like it was intended.

It’s really not that hard guys.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Liquid is federated with unknown group of federation members who can steal you bitcoin at anytime if they wish to collude.

Liquid doesnt offer much, 1 minute for transactions to execute which is very slow despite being 9 minute improvement on mainchain.

Liquid has confidential transactions which can still be traced so the privacy of Liquid is nonexistent.

The apps on Liquid are limited. The only app I see being cool is the LBTC and USDT AMM pool. Could be used to hedge your bets to convert USDT to Bitcoin without using exchange. Since the network effect is low, liquidity is low making slippage a problem when using these AMM pools.

Liquid lacks a network effect due to being a permissioned network, slow transactions speeds, lacks privacy and lack of applications.

There is no guarantee DC will succeed.But there is equally no guarantee any L2 succeed. But I am of the view its better to “try and fail” than “fail and never try”.

Liberty Farmer 2y ago

So, do you like liquid or not? 😂

kidwarp 2y ago

Never used it

B.O.P 2y ago

His video today ended with talking about BitVM saying a video is coming out about it tomorrow as a better idea to DCs. I like to think he’s seen this thread 😂

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Maybe he should wait til Robin Linus and Paul Sztorcs discussion on Friday twitter space. Could be interesting. You don’t want to say anything dumb prematurely.

B.O.P 2y ago

Think I saw that one, I try to watch every episode of his lmao. He didn’t really go deep into the technical side of drive chains but he basically warned against changing anything at the base layer

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Yeh he said something like bitcoin should be digital gold not be a Swiss Army knife.

But with bitcoin + BIP300 you can have both. It’s not either or. You can have digital gold on layer 1. You can have the Swiss Army knife on Layer 2s/sidechains.

B.O.P 2y ago

Mr. Kratter, if you’re out there in the Rockie mountains watching over this hellthread please address the concerns brought up about lightning and implementing DCs to sub as an improved medium of exchange to lightning, and if possible help form an opinion further here for your viewers with the tradeoffs between DC vs lightning. a lot of bitcoiners are pushing this off and eventually will come a time where we have to make a decision to run this software on our nodes or not. Would bip300 affect L1 and how? What are potential failure points to DCs? See rest of thread for other concerns

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Merge mining is mechanism that allows bitcoin miners to miner other blockchains/sidchains while mining the main bitcoin blockchain. Merge mining already exists and was first implemented by Satoshi in 2011 with Namecoin/BitDNS. Blind Merge Mining (BIP301) the is just a standardised version so bitcoin miners can miner multiple sidechain at once without needing to run sidechain/L2 Nodes.

Rootstock/RSK sidechain already enables merge mining, the only downside of RSK is that its owned by IOV labs and has federation of known members who can be captured by the state and steal your funds at any moment

I recommend reading this article on merge mining by Sergio Lerner to fully understand how it works in practice: https://medium.com/iovlabs-innovation-stories/merged-mining-and-decentralization-7c2590f928ed

https://bips.xyz/301