If you are debt free, like completely, you probably won't make as much money as you otherwise could have. Not investing in long term projects is high time preference.
You would be remissed to not take a loan on a long term project that was under the feds rate. If it's a productive endeavor, and you don't take on good debt to achieve it, you're throwing money away.
But no one on financial audit has good debt. The fiat mindset is pervasive, and Caleb's show is the best example.