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Fighting with god. It's your individual truth but I feel like god is the one force we cannot resist, and that we should be fighting for god on this earth.

mrclownworld 11mo ago

Genesis 32:24-28 (NIV):

“So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, ‘Let me go, for it is daybreak.’ But Jacob replied, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ The man asked him, ‘What is your name?’ ‘Jacob,’ he answered. Then the man said, ‘Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.’”

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Discussion

mrclownworld 11mo ago

In some interpretations, Jacob’s opponent in Genesis 32:24-30 is seen as an angel, while in others, it is considered to be God Himself in a physical manifestation.

Interpretations of Jacob’s Opponent

1. God Himself (Theophany) – Many Jewish and Christian scholars believe that Jacob was wrestling with God in some form. This view is supported by:

• The passage where Jacob says, “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” (Genesis 32:30)

• The name “Israel” given to Jacob, meaning “one who struggles with God.”

• Some Christian traditions view this as a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ (a Christophany).

2. An Angel (Divine Messenger) – Other interpretations suggest Jacob wrestled with an angel sent by God. This view is supported by:

• Hosea 12:3-4, which says:

“In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man, he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor.”

Here, the opponent is referred to as both God and an angel, suggesting a divine representative.

3. A Metaphorical or Visionary Struggle – Some scholars believe the event is symbolic, representing Jacob’s internal spiritual struggle before reuniting with his brother Esau.

Which View is Correct?

The ambiguity in the text allows for both interpretations. Some traditions, especially Rabbinic Judaism, lean toward the angel interpretation, while many Christian and Jewish scholars favor the idea that Jacob wrestled with God in human form.

Would you like a deeper dive into how different traditions interpret this passage?

Zach⚡️ 11mo ago

Here's my interpretation and I understand if you disagree, I am not as knowledgeable about scripture as you are and I tend to view things from a perspective of intuition.

We all are caught in an everlasting struggle with sin and temptation (working against god) which pulls us into lower states. I love Buddhist practices when it comes to this. Our goal is to reach the highest state (Heaven, Nirvana) and become "one" with our higher power.

There are so many different verses in different religious texts which can be interpreted for or against this idea, but ultimately I personally believe that reaching higher states of being requires us submitting ourselves to gods will through our actions. The men who rebel against god can be some of the most powerful men in the world, and they may even be noble heroes (think Greek mythology like Achilles or Hercules) but they are ultimately doomed in the same way we all are. This struggle against god can also at times not be noble and can result in unnatural states of being here on earth and great tragedy. Hence why it is important to not "play god".

The teachings and story of Jesus express this better for me, and I feel like the old testament would be incomplete without his story. But again, I'm using religion as a tool and as a way to interpret reality and access higher states. I am not claiming it is all true. Buddhist practices reflect more truth to me but people love stories and love to be part of strong communities, and Buddhism does not create those the same way Christianity does.

mrclownworld 11mo ago

For me, the idea of trying to wrestle to with God’s will versus submit to it is the difference between being a free being created in God’s image and being a slave.

I don’t want to disparage anyone’s faith in Christ because I can certainly understand the case for the value of a self-sacrificial God, but the totality of Old Testament religion vs Christianity reads more to me as a blueprint for a nice society among self-sovereign herdsmen vs a medieval serf’s promise of a reward for lifelong compliance