Nostr Web Client

Which outcome? Stalin was a socialist in one country. And even Stalin was not as Hitler. First of all body count:

Germany 7M

Russia 20M

And this exactly to defeat nazism.

Second, the main goal of nazism was to eradicate socialism and ideal communism. The Jews were considered to be “communist”. And in fact so it was, as the first kibutz where “socialist” experiments.

Third Nazis would put anyone and mostly for religious reason in concentration camps, or for origins reasons, genetically reasons, Stalin mainly put Nazis or political oppositore in gulags.

Nazis concentration camps where industrial death machines , not the same one can say for for gulags.

The ideal: nazism is corporative state (see USA)

Communism shall be based on decentralised small entities (soviets).

Americans entered the war when they realised Hitler was going to be defeated by the communists, and they did so only to prevent communist rise in Europe.

So, how can to things which basically fight each other be the same?

And again, no country was actually ever communist as it would require all the world to live with the same commune goal.

Socialism is probably the thing you guy are trying to target.

I hear Americans saying that Biden is a communist, which is somewhat hilarious, I would define Biden a socialist imperialist, which is more ore less like calling him a Nazi.

USA achieved the incredible: being able to actually colonise plenty of countries without even calling it colonisation. They did so using internal forces like the mafia in Italy, who had their same goal: defeat communism. Practically speaking, how can someone pretend that the country which hate communism the most (USA) who basically imported all the “brightest” nazi minds with the excuse that if they wouldn’t, then the communists would have ( fvcking laughing stock), could ever write honest history book about their enemies??? Come on… American history books are written by those who won who clearly created a narrative which leads to empty assumptions like

nazism = communism

satoshi jr 2y ago

Look at the outcomes as you said millions dead between both systems. Both used a totalitarian government to collect all the power to a central organization. Sure the stated goal might be different but they act like all other political organizations they collect power.

The argument you're making is like arguing protestants are anti catholics because they fought each other

Or Sunni and Shiites

The arguemnt against it is that it's all the same unless you do skmehting systematically different like free markets. Economic decisions aren't made by political methods. Not which flavor of political methodology is being used.

The rest is just theater.

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

bloodymary 2y ago

I personally am an anarchist, communist anarchist.

There has never been a communist country so you are talking about liberal capitalists and socialists.

Socialism and communism are not the same as you are arguing. That’s probably the biggest mistake you are doing.

Apart that I agree with the final conclusion, government (most of the governments we have in the western world are capitalists, so to say, leaning towards what you call the free market) and yet it is not doing that great.

But yeah I agree that government can only make it worst!

satoshi jr 2y ago

No I'm arguing they effectively do the same thing,inexplicityly used free market instead of capitalist because even the west "capitalist" governments do it too. Just to varying degrees. They all give themselves power and do things that distortnwhat a free market would choose. When I say socialist and communists are the same its cause if you plot it out those 2 dots are way off to the edge andsuper close to the Nazi dot in terms of how much they distort and otherwise are not respectful of individuals. For all the shit the US is, histocially its been a good space away from those in that sense.

I wish they would stop trying to move over to them but maybe its just not an option in the current monetary system.

bloodymary 2y ago

I think the USA just created a broader empire.

It’s the same as the nazi, done better. No need for concentration camps. People need to feel free. It’s a colonial empire in disguise.

Freedom? Fee market? What about weed? What about cocaine? The USA did the same shit you describe just on a longer time span!

Communism is an ideology and it has never been really accomplished in any country in the world.

There are many small reality who maybe reach that level but it’s for sure not a totalitarian system as you describe it. You are talking about Stalinist socialism, which is anyway again way more different from nazism. Nazism involves genetics , same as the USA type of “apartheid “ . The mcCarthism way. Make those who think different feel really shit. You just happen to be on the same side of the most, so you feel like the system is “quite nice” till now.

satoshi jr 2y ago

OK you're not listening. I'm notsaying the us has it perfect I'm saying they are closer to a free market because at least they have historically respected one of the core requirements of a free market called property Rights. Not perfectly, but order of magnitude than Nazi Germany, China, USSR, and as far as I know most other systems. Now could there be some small tribe I don't know about. Probably. But on the order of magnitude of nation state im pretty ok saying that there's been a big gap. You can say communisms never been tried all you want but the only wya to implement it on a nation state level is by the way it's alwaysbeenn done by political force which is just veiled military force.

Its why I keep saying the outcome of both naziism and socialism and communism are basically the same cause the methods they all use end up the same.

Now America might also end up the same. Its heading in the less individual freedoms path eight now. But again the argument is it didn't happen because too much free markets existed. It's cause they moved away from it.

bloodymary 2y ago

Nazism is the outcome of capitalism and Stalinism is the outcome of socialism. But on the rest i can say I agree with you. Even though what you call free market so free it is not, is more like a state inducted capitalism.

And actually have you ever been to the countries you named and do you actually know their history?

Many of the things we are told are for the sake of the western empire to survive, so I would take those affirmations cautiously though

satoshi jr 2y ago

I am not saying the us has a pure free market. Its a corporatist system. Increasingly so. What do you mean precisely by Nazism being the outcome of capitalism ?

Im not knowledgeable enough about anything to say that I know enough but I am making a principles based argument about the nature of markets. More precisely that manipulating the price signals of markets have to create inefficient outcomes. So the bigger the distortion the bigger the ineffiency although not linearly.

Just plotting the dots

bloodymary 2y ago

I agree with what you are saying about the price control.

By nazism being the outcome of capitalism, is given by the fact that for example nazists we’re beating people in fabrics fighting for better work conditions! So, I see nazism and fascism a way for capitalism to protect itself from decentralising forces. The so called liberal centrists basically approved the politics of the fascists and Nazis, who were clearly against workers unions, while being as you just said, corporative. Also corporativism is something peculiar to fascism and nazism which is shared by the USA vision.

The USA leveraged 3 years of massacres, selling weapons to the old continent just like they are doing now with Ukraine. It’s a state which was funded on a genocide, so it is in the blood of the state itself: genocide. So for many years USA was able to provide a “free market”, but nonetheless, as soon as needed, price control and limitations on the markets have been put I place to preserve the system.

I think nazism and fascism are the shape of a capitalistic system, totalitarianism is the outcome when things become hard for the system as we can see clearly happening under our own eyes today!

satoshi jr 2y ago

OK I think most of your post is incomprehensible gibberish but from what to can pull out is your argument that Nazism is an outcome of capitalism because they both oppose workers unions?

That american corporations have used political and military force to prevent worker unionization and that companies in Nazi Germany did as well?

Somehow this is a push back against decentralization?

Is that right?

bloodymary 2y ago

I agree with your summary of my point. Did you know police were created by Mussolini? He formed the "camicie nere," or blackshirts, which were the first real police force after being incorporated into the state. Many states then thought Mussolini's police force was cool, even if he was racist and hated homosexuals. They adopted police forces without those terms but kept the fascist model. If something acts like a fascist, it's probably a fascist.

You know the saying, if it acts walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck , it’s probably a duck!

bloodymary 2y ago

It is a push back to decentralisation, and I would say that it’s the outcome of capitalism, the fact that we have socialism in our political systems, it’s mainly to make the 99% be ok with being treated like slaves for the sake of capital. It’s has few to no connections with communist ideologies. Rather it has way more intersections with capitalism and it’s brute alter ego: fascism.

This is undeniable, and anyone who keeps saying that commie land is some sort of place where people starve to death, have some real big sized salami slice on their eyes!

satoshi jr 2y ago

I would disagree that unions are a push back to decentralization it’s just a corporation in a corporation with special state protections. It’s socialism.

What do you think capital is?

You aren’t a slave to capital cause you have to work, you have to work cause that’s the state of nature. You work or you can’t eat. Capital is just accumulated work. Saved in some form.

If you have a communist system or no property. That means no money no markets. How do you plan to produce enough food to support 8billion people. Unless you have a magic new way to coordinate people across time and space you’re going to end up killing large swaths of them. Like how it’s always ended up.

Also I would argue if you’re just doing correlations there’s way more in common (hyper centralized powers) with communist states and facist states.

bloodymary 2y ago

I didn’t say unions are a push back to decentralisation, it’s the opposite. You stated

“.. American corporations have used political and military force to prevent unionisation” asking “somehow this is a push back against decentralisation “ and yes it is.

Capital ain’t nature. Ask a squirrel how he does capitalisation! What you maybe referring to is the need for safety in moments when nature isn’t giving enough product. It has nothing to do with capital.

Then again, who said there is no property in a communist system. Private belongings are not disallowed, is private property as the means for productions.

Money in Italian is soldi. Soldi where used to pay soldiers to do war, so money are basically a war tool. People did exchanges with other means than money, did you ever hear about tallies?

What you are talking about is not a communist system, it was a socialist in one country. Communism is not based on the power of a central government, its exactly the opposite. What you refer to maybe is what Marx and Engels referred to a “bridge” system, which in fact it has been tried and was clearly a failure.

But also I think the that you are mislead as violence has always been part of any society. For example soon after the WWII English basically created concentration camps for jews in Palestine!!! So.. the mistake is to put certain action in the context of today. Times where different during the XX century. I can easily imagine nazi pushing LGBT theories today, where in the 30’s they would fiercely publicly opposing those behaves while at the same time practicing them in the private sphere. So… time changes, but fascists are always the same: they are not like you expect them to be! That’s my opinion. Fascists are capable of shape mutation, they can easily switch sides, cause they are simply on the side of the stringers against the weak, by doing propaganda on the exact opposite concepts (they been attacked by the Jews at those times and, today, attacked by terrorists, or Arabs, name them as you want, but still some strong racism is going on in their minds)

satoshi jr 2y ago

You're right squirrels are exactly the same as humans. Anything that isn't about storing nuts for the winter is an abomination.

Air was also used by Nazis and rockerfella clearly an elaborate ploy to take over the world. You must be some kind of genious to have put all this together kudos

bloodymary 2y ago

Are you sure you don’t miss twitter?

Come boy, don’t be that nazi

bloodymary 2y ago

You spoke about capitalism being natural wtf!

Abomination? I never said that, that’s probably the way you feel about it, and try to mirror it on me!

Actually did you knew that the largest ethnicity in the USA is Germans? I mean wtf twice!

Nazis and rockerfella, well, I even didn’t think about something like that, which sounds like a conspiracy theory, the way you put it down. But since you seem to me a CIA agent I will probably make some researches about it cause you probably are saying the truth 🤣