Replying to Avatar jimmysong

If Bitcoin is a monetary network and that's your priority, then NFTs and Memecoins are definitely worth thinking about, given that those things are now a significant chunk of the UTXO set. Somewhere in the 40% range are under 1000 sats and using Taproot, from what I've read so they have real effect on users' ability to run nodes. Shouldn't decreasing them or economically discouraging them be a priority? The attitude I've seen from many core devs is that of "we can't stop them entirely, so what's the point of trying?"

> If bitcoin's going to go anywhere, it can't be something where some select individuals can exercise outsize control over the network as a whole based on their personal dislikes. If you're in a position to stop people from spamming, governments are in a position to stop people funding opposition parties.

You're right that the analogy I gave is off, but I disagree with this.

Certainly if it was a small number of people that could veto transactions, yes, that would be terrible (though with enough KYC mining pools, this will be the case). But what we're talking about are relay standardness rules that virtually every node on the network already runs *being removed*. That's not a small number of people, that's almost everyone! And as others have pointed out, they can *still* get their transactions in if they're willing to use other means to get to miners who will mine these non-standard transactions. We're not talking about a small number of people censoring transactions they don't like, we're talking about most of the network *not relaying* transactions they don't like. They're not the same thing.

Nobody should be forced to relay transactions that they think are spam. It is not your bandwidth. Nor should anyone be forced to not relay transactions that they think are legitimate. The choice should be up to the node runner. The PR that got closed, and the current PR that's open both aim to remove this choice now, the next release or eventually.

> The issue with a global public ledger is that **every** entry in it other than those relating to your personal coins is fundamentally spam as far as you're concerned.

I get your broader point that we have blocksize limits that prevent data that people don't care about from getting out of hand. But what you have here is a very strange definition of spam.

I care about the part of the ledger that I have, yes. But I also care about the total number of Bitcoin as its absolute scarcity is a hugely important part of the value proposition. So yes, even transactions that I'm not directly party to actually do concern me because I want to be assured that the number of all Bitcoins is what I expect it to be. In other words, a continuous audit of the entire ledger has value to the individual holder.

Spam wastes the resources of my node and block space on non-monetary transactions making this continuous audit more expensive. So spam is not just "transactions that I'm not directly party to," but non-monetary transactions that bloat the resources required to audit the ledger. As I said, I understand the spam is limited by the blocksize limit, which is great. But it's still spam and making the distinction between monetary transactions and spam would mean monetary transactions cost less while spam costs more, which means we get more of the former and less of the latter. And conversely, removing the distinction, which is what removing the relay filter would do, would mean monetary transactions cost more while spam costs less. That would be prioritizing spam.

In other words, a monetary network should prioritize monetary transactions.

> analogy is off

That's precisely what I was claiming, not more, not less. In your own home, you get to set the rules, either as the patriarch, or as a family, and guests have to abide by those rules, or get kicked out for trespassing. That attitude doesn't work somewhere that everyone owns and no one is a guest. If a significant and influential group wants to encourage some standards, despite not being able to enforce them, that's one thing; another is if everyone is willing to enforce a new set of rules. But working out whether those things will do any good means looking into the technical details.

The problem isn't confined to a small group being able to veto, it also applies to a large majority being able to veto: if most petiole in the US or Canada don't mind you being debanked for being (legally) involved with drugs, porn, guns, or opposition politics, that shouldn't be enough to prevent you from using bitcoin. Likewise if 59000 node operators decide they dislike you or your activities.

The exact same mechanisms that allow unpopular citizens, activists or revolutionaries to use bitcoin are also deployable by the people you dislike when they want to use bitcoin in ways you dislike.

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No one is preventing you, the transaction creator, from doing anything. You can submit the transaction directly to a miner if you want to. What node operators are doing is refusing to cooperate with you if they filter your transaction and that's their right because that's their node. The emergent behavior is that transmission to a miner is more expensive and cumbersome, but it's not *prevention*.

And besides, we already make more expensive and cumbersome all kinds of transactions with other standardness rules like the filter for transactions that exceed 100,000 bytes. How do you square keeping that limit and lifting the 83 byte OP_RETURN limit?

One of the strangest parts of the debate is how the p2p-network is treated as both completely powerless (miners will get the spam txs anyway) and all powerful (it's censorship!!!) depending on the argument. Which is it? If it's all powerful, then the filters work and you have to make your argument on the moral ground of not censoring OP_RETURNs greater than 83 bytes. But the output is not monetary, so it should have lower priority at the very least than normal monetary transactions. If it's completely powerless, then why are you taking choices away from the node runner?

AJ, I noticed you didn't respond to this one. Is this an oversight or do you feel there's nothing left to discuss? I think I asked a pretty pertinent question and have endeavored to answer yours and it wouldn't be a dialogue if you're only asking me questions.

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