I woke up still contemplating this…

Jimmy makes a bunch of good points; I have no trouble believing that history/media has shaped the public’s opinion of Lincoln, and he may have in fact been a lousy president. (I can’t know, but he was a politician, after all, so that’s not a big leap). I always appreciate having my perspective expanded.

However…

What this narrative fails to articulate is that the South wanted to secede *because* they were threatened with the loss of the slave labor force.

I’ve heard arguments that the secession was economic, and in one sense that’s true. It was also about states rights, and tariffs. But it comes back to slavery.

The economic benefits, the “rights” that the region was seeking to preserve, were the product of absolute theft: theft of the time, energy, work, and life force of other human beings, upon which the south built a prosperous economy and community.

It was a prosperity built on a foundation that nobody - no state or citizen - ever had the “right” to own.

Would “allowing” secession and then making the North a safe haven been better? Perhaps. Less government intervention, less war, usually better.

But how long would it have taken, and how many more slaves would have lived and died in bondage, while the free market played out?

History is indeed tricky…

Good morning 🤝 nostr:note1ug8rx09pa8x0fwgm45d8sumzj8ss9xxp5cqqj8lhm8cu34d42uzqvatlg9

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Ideally, they should have let them secede. Slavery was in its last throes anyway. Yes, it would have lasted longer and hundreds of thousands would have remained enslaved. But hundreds of thousands died, more were disabled, and a greater evil in the form of an ever centralizing and geographically larger State was born as a result. Which happened to classify black people as inferior for a full century after that anyway.

There’s definitely nuance and a lot of greater and lesser evils to look at here.

It’s hard to quantify. But the individual rights abuses, in my opinion, were far more egregious than the abuses of states’ rights.

Fuck slavery, fuck racism, fuck war.

Can’t imagine there are any easy answers, but I appreciate your thoughtful reply 🙏

When judging participants it's helpful to separate the Secession from the War. The Secession was an act to preserve the status quo of slavery by asserting what those states thought to be their self determining rights. The War was an act to prevent secession based on the notion that states, having moved from colonies of the crown to members of the union, had never been self sovereign and therefore did not have the right to leave. As war broke out the Union found it didn't have the military support that it expected and needed something to galvanize support. As Grant would later say, "when the war broke out the army dissolved. We had no army – then we had to organize one." This, after war had begun and lines had been drawn, is when the states purpose became emancipation. The average soldier didn't care about preventing secession, but they could be stoked by a crusade to end slavery. With this framing you could say that to the soldiers the War was in fact about slavery, but if we want to judge leadership and governance, slavery was profit to the Confederacy and a tool for the Union. As Reddit would say: Everyone Sucks Here.

All viable points. On the flip side, the comment by Lincoln about preserving the union without freeing anyone was (allegedly) tailored to retain the central states’ (MD, etc) allegiance to the north, with a rallying cry of “unity”.

I’m a big believer states’ rights (or, perhaps I should say, communities’ rights - because states are still too large), but I’m a bigger believer in individual rights. And the rights of individuals are no worse abused than in a nation where slavery exists.

Next up… the prison industry 😒

Thanks for the thoughtful note 🫡

The South wasn't a bunch of innocents, for sure, but the question we need to raise is, did he need to wage war? if you think that he did, then I would argue you haven't studied history enough. Why did chattel slavery end everywhere else before and after the Civil War without a war?

I believe revoking the Fugitive Slave Act and letting the South secede would have ended slavery in the same way it did in Brazil, through economic means and without millions of deaths.

Appreciate the thoughtful reply.

I can’t imagine endorsing war as the right solution, for (nearly) any circumstance.

I’ve long wondered about slavery’s abolition in other nations. Why did it take a war to achieve that here - were Americans really that “stuck”?

Your point is well-taken: perhaps it wouldn’t have taken a war to get (with time) better results, if the classical liberal view had prevailed.