Nostr Web Client

So the workers collectively own the means of production?

I assume you're well aware of the history of communism - how that lovely-sounding theory has played out in many places - but I also assume that you're posting in good faith, and I'm curious about how logistics would work in your vision.

Let's say you have a means of production - a farm, a factory - and 40 workers. Who/what enforces the even distribution of ownership?

bloodymary 2y ago

I personally think that the model you are talking about is inherently coercive and cannot tollerate what I am talking about.

Also, I know the history you are talking about, but it’s funny that you pretend it to be communism where instead it was socialism in one country. If this is not clear I think you should read deeper.

I personally think that the industrial framework cannot exactly be capable of hosting such an environment, simply put, if we are 10 people and 9 work for the common goal, and one decides to misbehave, well, it is going to be easy for him to grab value from the other participants, and, if this one is a true statement, it cannot lead to the assumption : there is nothin one can do, cause there will always be malicious actors, cause if Satoshi would have think the same, he probably wouldn’t have find the solution to the Byzantine General problem.

So, admitting that this can work out, I think people shall be given the tools to own the facility and the tools they work in. There shall not be a capitalistic socialist government facilitating an oligarch to own and possess the industry.

If you people believe that shit like Ford is the accomplishment of Ford alone, well you may be wrong and you may have been kept captives in a mentality which NEEDS a CEO, mostly cause in that way all the benefits of being entitled to the creation of the idea goes to one single person, which becomes warshipped (see Steve Jobs). While in reality they are just a bunch of assertive yes man, who gave people the feeling that there is an actual choice, while in fact there is no real alternative! So, I think people who work in a factory shall own that factory. It has happened in Italy with Olivetti, and you know, the capital act to protect itself from external bodies, and the project got rejected.

In my vision things shall be realised slightly differently: I think we need a different framework than industrial production. The goal shall be to enable production on the leafs of the graph, by the mean of 3d printing for example.

So, with that said, I am aware that communism cannot be easily achieved or even tried out in a consuming society, but I am also aware that what you guys talk about it’s Stalin socialism in one country and it is pretty different from the vision of Marx and Engels.

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

FiddleHodlHomestead 2y ago

It's hard to parse through this because I'm not sure who "you guys" are or what you think I (we?) believe. What model am I referring to that is coercive?

I have no doubt that Stalinism (and whatever you want to call the totalitarian systems in East Germany, Poland, Romania, Cuba, etc) are quite different from ideal communism and that according to Marx and Engles they wouldn't qualify as communism at all. The part that I always get stuck on is that for there to be a particular system, you need enforcement. For enforcement, you need enforcers, which means moral hazard is built into the system. The more enforcement, the greater the moral hazard.

For example, you say people "shall be given," which sounds nice but when you take it out of the passive voice the question is: who gives them the tools?

---

But I'm going to take the heart of your answer as the one about a different framework than industrial production. If you feel like writing more, can you explain that? I don't know enough about 3D printing to understand the leaves/graph sentence.

bloodymary 2y ago

By “you” I mean people who oppose communist ideas using rhetoric like communism being centralized and the same as Nazism, calling supporters "commies" and mistake private property meanings.

Industrial production requires money to operate, creating class differences. 3D printing could decentralize production through community coordination, enabling everyone to own means of production. Small communities could have social power with freedom to opt out, as 3D printing now prints metal and wood.