Replying to Avatar Rusty Russell

First up, I want to recognize that this is an uncomfortable topic! Bitcoin is inevitably changing towards user-pays, and that's not all positive. But facts we don't like are still facts: can't engineer a solution if we can't think about the problems.

There are three kinds of bitcoiners.

A. Those who can afford any fee.

B. Those who can afford a UTXO, but not often.

C. Those who can't afford a UTXO.

Nobody worries about the A group (and in the early days, that was everyone). Obviously Lightning (my area!) caters to the B group, and we want it to be as large as possible. To do this we can (1) make lightning as resiliant as we can so onchain spends are rare, (2) make bitcoin as efficient as possible so we can cram as much as we can into what we have.

(1) Making lightning more resilient and reliable is engineering. Lots of people working on this, even before we get soft-forks which could help further.

(2) More efficiency has two benefits: obviously if your own onchain spends are 20% smaller, that's 20% cheaper. But if *everyone's* onchain spends are 20% smaller, that means fees are lower *for everyone* too (and it's non-linear). So we really care about all Bitcoin usage! Some things are obvious wins: Taproot so you can avoid even putting the script onchain in many cases, FROST so you can cram your 2 of 3 or other scheme into a single key and signature. We know we want to get more aggressive with sharing one signature across multiple inputs (Cross Input Signature Aggregation), but that needs a lot more research, and a soft-fork.

But even with all these, the math is clear: some people, even if you somehow gave them their wealth in a UTXO, it couldn't afford its own fees to spend. The C group is real. Spoiler alert: we don't have an answer for this! But let's look at some approaches people have tried.

Firstly, there are attempts to move these people into the B group: give them long enough that maybe fees will reach a point they can afford. This seems unlikely to me:

1. As fees increase everyone will start doing the work to take advantage of low fee times, and that itself means that low-fee times won't be so low.

2. These schemes tend to increase onchain footprints, so they need fees to drop a lot to overcome that (typical is 2x the transaction size, so you need fees to halve to gain anything).

3. If you really can't afford the fee, you probably also can't afford to wait.

4. You still haven't actually dealt with those who really, really can't afford the fees. Ever.

Another suggestion is that someone (e.g. a lightning service provider) will lock up funds which would cover fees, in case something goes wrong. This doesn't work economically, because nobody is paying $100 for a $5 user (not at scale), but it doesn't even work mathematically: the reason some people will have small UTXOs is because there are not enough sats for 10 billion people with any realistic distribution.

There are two basic approaches left:

1. Group people, so they fall into the B category (i.e. onchain tx is possible, but expensive).

2. Trust someone, but rely on incentives.

1. Grouping people is possible, but they need to work together if somenthing goes wrong. So grouping inside a community is probably better than grouping with randos.

For example, there are various tree-of-transaction schemes where you go onchain only if the coordinator fails/goes rogue, and how much it costs you depends on whether anyone near you in the tree pays to get themselves out. These are basically free if nothing goes wrong (one UTXO required for thousands of users!). But this is subject to ghettoization, where the coordinator makes sure all the C people are grouped together, knowing none of them can afford the transactions they need to get their funds back. It's particularly bad because the coordinator can insert its own fake "whales" to make it look like it's not ghettoized.

You can play with incentives here, too: more research needed. The details matter!

2. Relying on incentives.

As a simple example, lightning-connected e-cash mints. They can't rug individuals very easily, they have to rug everyone together (or go fractional and rug the last ones to exit). Maybe with enough anonymity and reputation, these would be Good Enough.

More ambitious would be a single UTXO held for multiple people by a coordinator. Can we make it so that if a coordinator is dishonest, you can force them to burn your funds? Maybe burn more than your funds (ie. a bond)? Won't get your money, but it aligns incentives so they're not motivated to rug you. The details here really matter!

There's a cute scheme which has been proposed where the coordinator pays a temporary bond, and asserts that they actually have everyone's signature to transfer the funds. If nobody challenges within a week, they get the bond back and the funds move. If someone challenges, all the signatures are put onchain, and if they're not all valid, the bond gets half-burned and half-given to the (successful) challenger. This is hard to make work, though. Someone needs to get the money to challenge (hard if you don't have the money in the first place, plus it's hard to prove to someone you *didn't* sign something!), and then make sure nobody gets the challenge bond before them (in particular, a dishonest coordinator, seeing the game is up, completes the successful challenge *themselves* and gets half their bond back), and make sure someone can't grief and delay the settlement indefinitely or bankrupt the coordinator.

More research needed, here, too.

Summary

A longer post than I had expected to write. And it's buried in the middle of a thread nobody will read. (I do this sometimes. I suck at marketing I guess!)

Sub-fee bitcoin amounts will have tradeoffs, involving trusting someone who has more money than you (at least, in someone's competence, even if their *financial* incentives can be made to match yours). This is difficult to build well, and not a very exciting thing to build today, so it hasn't really happened (custodial things are much, much easier!).

This is also a key reason I believe we need to make Bitcoin more expressive: if we can do *more* with our own UTXOs, we can build better solutions. And by "we" I mean "someone smarter than me" of course!

Feedback welcome!

Great note. The grouping (with right incentives) that we can do right now is to open some channels on Liquid and bridge the payments. It's one network. The peg ins are essentially the grouped UTXOs.

Here's how to do it:

https://juraj.bednar.io/en/blog-en/2023/05/07/expanding-the-lightning-network-to-serve-billions-a-quick-win-strategy/

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Discussion

Isnt Liquid just a corporate Shitcoin?

They own your BTC, you own their L-Token. They can censor your transactions on their network. It is not decentralized, the network is owned by a couple coporations.

Why should we go that path at all?

Whats the big difference to using WBTC on Ethereum?

WBTC is one entity, Liquid is a contractual consensus of financially unrelated entities who would need to block you by majority. Also, lightning payments backed by Liquid channels don't go on chain, so they don't have much say about payments (this is very different to for example wallet of Satoshi, they can do lightning payment level censorship, Liquid not so much).

Also, since it's one Lightning network, you can get out through independently operated bridge, not through their multisig.

Yes, it's not Bitcoin mainnet, but it has pretty good balance of fees vs privacy vs distribution of decisions for many smaller channels that would otherwise not be possible.

As it is not Bitcoin, it is a shitcoin. Its owned by some corporate entities which get all the fees and they can censor you. If they have that possibility, they will use it when the Feds ask them to. Maybe not now but in a couple of years when Liquid infrastructure is built.

To me it is just unfathomable why BTC Maxis simp for Liquid. It is the most anti bitcoin thing i can think of.

I am not a btc maxi.

I told you that you can choose when it's useful, some people want to participate in lightning but the fees will price them out.

Also - which FEDs? The signers are geographically distributed.

It is a tool that can be used in some situations. This bitcoin-shitcoin thing was cool three years ago, now we talk about real world solutions to real problems.

Also, there's not one "we". Someone wanting to dollar cost average 3$ per month to escape extreme poverty has a very different opinion on what is a corporate shitcoin and what is useful to them.

Sure there is not one "we".

But how many people do you know which want to dca $3 a month into BTC and think they will escape extreme poverty that way? On a ledger where a transction costs you often more than $3?

I think thats all just made up stories to justify crappy, corporate scaling solutions, so crappy that i rather use cash and a credit card instead.

Same for FEDI. If dont even have custody of our funds, we can dump that whole idea of freedom money immediately, embrace the CBDC and get some vaseline so the state can fuck us better.

Relax, the world is not black and white,.

Yes, I do know of this problem and it's real. nostr:nprofile1qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3kamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wdaexzmn8v4cxjmrv9ejx2a30qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qg3waehxw309ahx7um5wgh8w6twv5hsz8rhwden5te0dehhxarj95cjumnzduhxzmn8v9hxjtnrduhsz8rhwden5te0dehhxarjv9n8y6trvyh8qcmyddjzuenedyhsz9nhwden5te0dehhxarj9e5kummnw3sjucmr9uq3gamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wd4skgmewd9hj7qgcwaehxw309ashgtnwdaehgunhdaexkuewvdhk6tcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3e8xct5wesjumn9wshsqgzu4kpv3x8wvcqnwyv5t4587lv4f8mytgq3s3na4ch4uf6vtxxklunvhgqx speaks about it a lot for example, helping people in Africa get onboarded. On-chain fees are a real problem and we should not price out some people just because we think everything should be solved only in one way.

Bitcoin is about open mind, expanding options, competition of ideas, not about some predetermined unshakeable ideology.

Hal Finney understood and wrote about this in 2010, as did Nick Szabo. https://rextar4444.medium.com/hal-finneys-theory-of-bitcoin-backed-banks-6b6484880c14

We will use plenty of technologies and let people choose their price sensitivity and need for privacy, security and censorship resistance.

Your word in satoshis ear :)

On chain fees are a problem, 1mb block sizes in 2024 as well, still missing privacy is the biggest problem to me.

I like your approach, we shall build pipes between different technologies.

Still we need to see that the foundation for future payment rails is being built right now. If we accept to scale through custodians ( and Liquid is also a custodian, they take your BTC, they give you their L Token ) , then we lose the properties which made Bitcoin revolutionary far before we reach any mass adoption.

The more people get onboarded and use a custodial technology, the harder it will be to change it later on. And the easier it is to force KYC. The problem is similar with custodial Lightning.

BTC used through custodians with a transparent chain can easily become the CBDC everybody is afraid of.