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If being trinitarian is what it takes to be a christian, than thats not what I am. You can try to relegate me to some crazy sect like whatever you mentioned, but thats only ad hominem. There is God, and there are gods. There is only one God and he created us all and everything else. Christ says its ok to call him our god, but he only points us to the father, and we only have the authority to do so through faith in him. He never claimed to be the creator, but he does claim to be the reason everything was created, because if not for him God would have never have made creation. He was part of the plan from the beginning, and his will and the Father's will are united, so in a sense he did exist from the beginning the same way we have existed from the beginning as part of the movie playing out as God could see it before it was set into motion

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

Friend, there was nothing 'ad hominem' about what I wrote. For example, if a person likes wine then he is an oenophile by definition. If he does not like wine, then is not an oenophile by definition. The definition of who is and who is not a Christian is not *mine*, but comes to us first from Scripture, and second from the church -- i.e., in the ecumenical creeds and confessions. If you've never read the Nicene Creed, or the Athanasian creed, or the definition of Chalcedon, for example, then please do check them out--all are free online--comparing Scripture with Scripture always (Acts 17:11).

Drawing from one of those confessions, namely, the Westminster Standards (WLC), we believe the following:

Q. 6. What do the Scriptures make known of God?

A. The Scriptures make known what God is, the persons in the Godhead, his decrees, and the execution of his decrees.

Q. 7. What is God?

A. God is a Spirit, in and of himself infinite in being, glory, blessedness, and perfection; all-sufficient, eternal, unchangeable, incomprehensible, everywhere present, almighty, knowing all things, most wise, most holy, most just, most merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.

Q. 8. Are there more Gods than one?

A. There is but one only, the living and true God.

Q. 9. How many persons are there in the Godhead?

A. There be three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one true, eternal God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory; although distinguished by their personal properties.

Q. 10. What are the personal properties of the three persons in the Godhead?

A. It is proper to the Father to beget the Son, and to the Son to be begotten of the Father, and to the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity.

Q. 11. How doth it appear that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God equal with the Father?

A. The Scriptures manifest that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God equal with the Father, ascribing unto them such names, attributes, works, and worship, as are proper to God only.

This last one, Q11, is of particular interest: "ascribing unto them such names, attributes, works, and worship, as are proper to God only." If you'd like a version with proof texts, see the 2nd link below.

[Westminster Larger Catechism](https://opc.org/lc.html)

[Westminster Larger Catechism (with proofs)](https://opc.org/documents/LCLayout.pdf)

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Discussion

Brunswick 2y ago

I am a former proselyte of the Catholic Church studying to be a priest, I am well aware of the Nicean creed. These arguments are not new to me. As a former devotee to Mary, of the discalced carmelites, and the Holy Roman Catholic Church, I prayed to know the truth at all expense. The depths of centuries of error were revealed to me through studying the scriptures, and as a result I am not only excommunicated but rejected by most of all of christiandom. There is no church for hundreds of miles where I can find communion with. Its truly miraculous the word is preserved to the integrity it is today. I have reviewed your referenced writings of John Owen (I did find them,) and see the same arguments I have long overcome to my own satisfaction. My statements, likewise, are not directed at your personhood but are intended to share the poorly understood perspective I have come to.