Nostr Web Client

over duplication is wasteful, you have the storage which is not massive but the network overhead is the main problem especially on mobile

you really only need 2 or 3 copies, enough that you have backups

having your content on lots of relays doesnt necessarily solve banning, what if you only share one relay in common with someone and thats the one that bans you? to solve banning we need robust discoverablity which is what nip65 is an attempt at but better will come like a dht for npub relay info

you can upload illegal content on centralized servers now, there is illegal text too, i would guess to solve the illegal content for decentralized providers we would need lists of illegal hashes which btw is how some centralized providers do it too

splinter 2y ago

I agree it is a struggle on mobile and you're right on the discoverability bit being key. I just think in general you don't want to be dependent on only a handful of relays. Between getting banned by a couple and others disappearing, you may find your history gone one day.

Thankfully relays duplicate notes to each other to a certain extent as their users interact with other relay users. So ideally we all have a handful of relays in common, but more relays that we post to overall. Good discoverability may just solve this organically.

The illegal content situation is a massive issue for a small provider. There's just too much risk associated with it and it's not easy to get access to those hash based options.

Centralized servers do solve for it, but they typically have the resources and access to those specialized services. My view is there are enough large providers to have sufficient choice, and things like bit-torrent also exist to absolutely guarantee you can still make files available.

Illegal text is not in the same league in my view and it's much easier to deal with.

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Discussion

StephanGuy 2y ago

well ideally we will do something like bittorrent with nostr but better, there is a protocol call iroh that is a rethink of ipfs that seems like the solution, it will allow us to directly hash files to address them like notes are which is not something ipfs or bittorrent can do, it uses a new hash called blake3 to do this

if governments want illegal content removed they will need to provide access to a hash list otherwise we will darkweb lol

https://github.com/n0-computer/iroh

CappyNate🍁 2y ago

This thread is 100%, absolutely spot on. None of this glassy eyed blind worship shit. Real problems, real attempts at solutions.

Paid relays can't scale. Users are fleeing Elon because of paywalling. Here you would have to pay multiple relays for redundancy. Network effect will never engage. Same logic for paid Clients.

Tokenization combined with ads is the solution for incentivizing all stakeholders. Fixed supply token issuance. Advertisers buy a token, and pay that token to relays, clients, users, and creators in exchange for advertising (or really, boosting visibility). Because that's all feed advertising is.

This rewards users/clients/relays and keeps them sustainable. To cash out users/clients/relays simply sell their tokens to the next crop of advertisers for ad slots. And so on. Perfect tokenomics. Slightly tricky mechanical implementation.

Agree, excessive duplication is wasteful, but is more robust. That's the downside of any decentralization. It sacrifices efficiency for censorship resistance. Centralization is ALWAYS more efficient, but you get censor risk. Tradeoffs. In this era of mob rule, censorship resistance is taking precedence.

Illegal content. Agree. Tricky issue. He who holds it, becomes the target. It basically has to be darkweb. Of course no one supports child porn in any way. So it's tricky.

I think really the solution ends up: Content Sovereignty. All accts need to act as their own relay. Self hosted. Instead of relying on a few 3rd party relays who could go rogue. Of course this is possible now, but I haven't figured how to build a relay, so it's not dummy friendly.

But if everyone is their own relay, then a user subscribes to not only the account, but its attached relay as well. Package deal. This way 3rd party relays aren't risking users "driving it like a rental" and possessing incriminating content on their 3rd party relay.

The client would then populate feeds from all the people you follow, directly from their self-hosted relays. Infinite decentralization. Content sovereign. Also much easier to fairly tokenize, since a content creator is bundled in with a relay, they're being rewarded for both.

I guess the problem with this structure is, government "pruning". If gov finds your wrongthink, they attack you directly and throw you in jail. That is if they can track down your anon handle, VPN obscured IP, etc. It's easier for them to sniff out individuals, than a group. Maybe. Also clients still remain a potential ban point, not sure the solution here.

But this is the right convo to be having. Big respect to you 2.