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Institutional adoption, isn't going to somehow compromise the Bitcoin protocol. All it does is strengthen its purchasing power, and thus hashrate. Nodes are what matter when setting the rules and properties of Bitcoin.

"Ah yes, but XMR being delisted everywhere and therefore becoming more difficult to adopt for regular people proves its a threat to fiat, somehow."

You can keep believing that. I'll stick to the hard money that people are actually using, and that can still buy easily anywhere. The dollar will fall as Bitcoin rises, and Monero will go nowhere. Lightning also makes Monero's "privacy" obsolete.

Daedalus 1mo ago

This is beyond fruitless so this will be my last response.

Most real world transactions are done on monero. Sites that support both Monero and Bitcoin almost always see higher Monero volume, take NanoGPT for instance. Despite Bitcoins first mover advantage and network affect, its usage is extremely rare on the giant p2p markets that are darknet markets. There Monero is king and asking to use Bitcoin will get you accused of being a fed. Also go to xmrbazaar.com and tell me there's a marketplace like that for Bitcoin.

Lightnings privacy varies from decent but very susceptible to network monitoring from state level adversaries due to its entire reliance on network level privacy (running your own node and opening channels) to completely trusted custodial solutions like Wallet of Satoshi, Strike and Cashapp. Those offer absolutely no privacy from the custodian and every state level adversary they are subject to. Crash has great privacy but suffers greatly in reliability and being entirely custodial thus increasingly centralized.

Monero is more private than all the options above, both on chain privacy (Stealth addresses, RingCT, and ring signatures) and network level privacy (Dandelion++ for clearnet and Tor or i2p transaction proxying for anonymity networks) while being cheap to transact, faster than on-chain Bitcoin to settle, and vastly more decentralized both in culture and technological defaults.

After digesting all this how possibly could you consider Bitcoin a superior money?

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Discussion

U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D 1mo ago

Bitcoin and Monero are complimentary.

Bitcoin is less threatening to TPTB and is therefore spearheading the normalization and adoption of magic internet money for transactions and store of value.

Monero provides an alternative for private transactions and store of value. It also serves as a viable plan B in the event that Bitcoin becomes fully captured by TPTB.

In the ideal future, Bitcoin will be the primary money for public companies/institutions and governments and Monero will be the primary money for private companies/institutions and individuals.

Cyph3rp9nk 1mo ago

Moneros, a shitcoin.

Go sell your shitty coin somewhere else, you guys are so annoying.

I'm still waiting for someone to trace my Lightning transactions or swaps between Bitcoin/Lightning/Liquid.

Daedalus 1mo ago

Your channels peer, and swap provider get all that metadata and are subject to subpoena from law enforcement. State intelligence has surveillance over all domestic and international internet traffic and BGP routes. You can't rely on network obfuscation alone. They know.

I'll not selling you Monero, I don't care if you buy it I wouldn't know anyway. I just want the self deception around Bitcoins failings to end. What the lot of you think you bought with Bitcoin (private unstoppable freedom money) is actually a façade in Bitcoin and only lives in Monero.

Daedalus 1mo ago

Lol use use Wallet of Satoshi, I responded assuming you were running your own lightning node. What a joke, you claim to be a cypherpunk?

Hanshan 1mo ago

how do you know the routing nodes aren't tracing them?

you don't.

kyle-moore 1mo ago

I thought they only see minimal data?

Hanshan 1mo ago

they know the next hop 🤷

and if network topography tends toward hub-and-spoke and its only 1-3 routing nodes to the destination, it doesn't take much colluding and channel probing to figure out the destination.

and we'd never know if it was happening.

which is the point.

Daedalus 1mo ago

That's assuming perfect privacy from the original channel peer. You still have to have an on chain transaction locked up with a peer and all payments initially route through them. This gives a huge amount of metadata that can be combined with timing analysis for subsequent hops.

Yes payments are onion routed but if the entry node is static and there's no obfuscation packets or anything then timing attacks are trivial. Combine this with centralizing routing nodes as you touched on in another reply you have a scenario where you have good privacy from the recieved but terrible from state intelligence.

Most Bitcoiners are under the impression that institutional adoption is good and state intelligence is pro Bitcoin so they believe this threat model is reasonable, but time will tell.

Hanshan 1mo ago

how does having a UTXO locked with a counterparty give "metadata that can be combined with timing analysis for subsequent hops?"

not sure what that data is...

Daedalus 1mo ago

The channel peer you open the channel with knows both the history of the UTXO used to open the channel, and every subsequent transaction routed through them. If that UTXO was split from another that's later identified to you, then the whole channel is identified to you and thus anything routed through your channel peer is attributed to you. Then with timing analysis, later hops can be linked to the origin channel thus the whole chain can be broken.

If I'm incorrect please inform me this is the limit of my knowledge.

Hanshan 1mo ago

well sure

but that's just regular onchain privacy problems, not unique to LN.

Daedalus 1mo ago

Its can break open the whole LN privacy though. Also works both ways. If through timing analysis your LN channel is identified to you, then the UTXO is and thus all previous cospend will break that on-chain anonymity.

Its superior privacy to purely on-chain since it requires this network attack but still presents a massive attack vector compared to a Monero with both on-chain sender, recieved and amount privacy AND network level privacy through Dandelion++

IK I'm preaching to the choir on the Monero point with you as you're aware of those technologies, I'm just bringing it back to Clippy's original claim that lightning privacy makes Monero irrelevant.

U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D 1mo ago

Calling Monero the S-word is cypherphobic

Daedalus 1mo ago

Problem with this is that Monero is a better private store of value (not really its purpose anyway) AND certainly a better medium of exchange. As OFAC sanctions encroach upon non-KYC BTC UTXOs we'll see a squeeze of nonKYC Bitcoin and thus the adoption of Bitcoin will be bifurcated sharply between the regulated KYC UTXOs and the non-KYC "Tainted" coins. This is already happening with high AML risk coins like those in coinjoin, it's only getting worse.

Meyer 1mo ago

Cool story! You have people in this thread that are telling you they like monero and support it but they also like and appreciate bitcoin. What do you honestly want from people?

Hate to break it to you but as hard as you monero bros try, monero will likely never be widely adopted as either a medium of exchange or a store of value.

Best case is that it remains a way for people that need to operate in black/grey markets to exchange value outside of the surveillance state which many of us support and should make you happy

Daedalus 1mo ago

All freedom preserving markets will have to become grey then black. Stay tuned.

Meyer 1mo ago

Ok if/when that happens, then we will swap our bitcoin for monero to transact in these “freedom preserving markets” if/when we have to.

I and most of us on here will continue save and store our wealth in bitcoin over some privacy shitcoin while you scream at us and hate on bitcoin

Meanwhile I am doing just fine transacting over lightning and I am not asking anyone for permission to do so

Daedalus 1mo ago

They know that that's your plan, that's why we're seeing crackdowns on coinjoined UTXOs. You think they stop there? I posit that non-KYC UTXOs are next, they have a clear anti terrorism anti money laundering narrative for it and all the intention to do so.

By the time it becomes salient that real untraceable digital cash is necessary for even inoccuous freedoms we take for granted, your stack very well may not help you if no Monero holder will trade for it.

Hanshan 1mo ago

freedom will never be popular.

always has been.

Meyer 1mo ago

I am with you

Here is a great example of an insufferable monero bro though. Him and a few others on here make me very disinterested and almost adversarial to your cause.

Hanshan 1mo ago

I dunno man

it's true we take ALL the opportunities, but I kinda think this is you being too sensitive.

I don't really see any examples of "screaming at us and hating on Bitcoin" in this thread.

looks like pretty intelligent discourse in general.

Hanshan 1mo ago

good take