Nostr Web Client

Warning: Long rant (but meant to be informative).

Yes, Amethyst can do it. And fiatjaf is actively campaigning against the way it is implemented because, from his perspective, it’s implemented in a generic and complex way that makes it difficult for other clients to support. This may result in potentially vastly different experiences across clients even for fundamental types such as short notes. The main argument here is that "all powerful" editing capabilities may fractures the Nostr ecosystem. There are plenty of alternative proposals for editing notes, but as far as I know, not much concrete has been done to implement them and gather user feedback.

On the other side, there’s nostr:nprofile1qqsyvrp9u6p0mfur9dfdru3d853tx9mdjuhkphxuxgfwmryja7zsvhqpzamhxue69uhhv6t5daezumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tcpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7qgwwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkctcscpyug (Amethyst’s developer), whose argument is basically: It’s useful, and users use it. If they want it, they get it.

Disclaimer: I use this feature myself, just like I edit posts on Mastodon, LinkedIn, Reddit, and a gazillion other places. From a selfish perspective, I’m happy with it. And I also don’t think that not seeing edits on other clients is a big deal for my own use cases. Yeah, zapping a post that originally said “I love kittens” only to see it later changed to “I loathe kittens” somewhere else isn’t great. But I can live with that if it means I can fix my own typos.

Then there’s everyone else: "Nostr influencers" doing whatever they do, folks who want Nostr to be like an "immutable" blockchain, people who oppose edits due to possible abuse (or a myriad of other reasons), and those who love editing and don’t want it taken away. Overall, there are devs supporting both sides, some taking strong stances, others just shrugging it off.

Every few weeks, someone brings this up again. Honestly? Neither side is likely to change their mind. So we’re stuck in an endless debate that will either remain unresolved or be settled by adoption metrics.

My take? Things will likely stay as they are, at least for a while. If they do change, either Amethyst’s editing features will become the de facto standard and other popular clients will slowly adopt it to survive, or a better standard will emerge and Amethyst will have to conform.

Hopefully, this was informative. See you all in a couple of weeks when this topic resurfaces again. :)

U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D 10mo ago

Thanks for the detailed response. I'm new to Nostr (3 days) and have been trying to figure out if editing (and deleting etc.) was a thing.

I get the "immutable blockchain" argument, but I don't think double spending resistance is very relevant to notes. The bait and switch risk sounds almost entirely theoretical, as I can't imagine anyone losing sleep over zapping a few cents to a note that was later edited. Maybe, for some select accounts, it could be important that the notes were immutable (politicians, reporters, official accounts, etc.)

However, I think 99+ percent of users would prefer to have the ability to edit and delete. Also, feature parity with centralized competitors is important if the goal is to be competitive and to steal their market share.

I agree with nostr:npub180cvv07tjdrrgpa0j7j7tmnyl2yr6yr7l8j4s3evf6u64th6gkwsyjh6w6 assertion above that editing is a crucial, unnegotiable feature. I strongly believe that without it, Nostr will not achieve mainstream adoption.

For example, I have an associate with millions of followers on X, and was thinking of trying to talk him into Nostr, but I know that not being able to edit and delete would be a deal killer for him, so I'm not going to bother.

Maybe it could somehow be a user-selected feature. So users could elect to make their notes editable or immutable during account creation. Maybe this could also help with backward compatability - new accounts have the edit: [yes/no] flag, and old accounts without the edit flag would default to [no].

There could be a small locked/unlocked icon, dot, or whatever on the user profile, so other users would know if their timeline was editable or immutable.

This way, the "immutable blockchain" purists could maintain their preference for immutability, and the other 99% of users could enjoy the ability to edit and delete.

Obiously, the software engineering challenge also needs to be addressed.

Given the differing strong opinions from various programmers, it sounds like it would be helpful if someone influential and widely respected (like nostr:npub1sg6plzptd64u62a878hep2kev88swjh3tw00gjsfl8f237lmu63q0uf63m) made a recommendation regarding the path forward. Vitalik serves this necessary role for the decentralized Ethereum community, and without it, they wouldnt have made nearly as much progress on major protocol upgrades like proof of stake, pre-compiles, blobs, L2s, etc. etc.

I have no clout or influence here, but that's my 2 Sats, FWIW

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Discussion

fiatjaf 10mo ago

I was being sarcastic. Read the article I linked to here please: nostr:nevent1qqsqqqzssec55za6wkk2fj8l22wrjs0rvsf30vrc5fh57smp3x93sqgpz4mhxue69uhkzet8d9ejuat50phjummwv5hszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qg3waehxw309ahx7um5wgh8w6twv5hs852rcx

Anthony Accioly 10mo ago

Lol, we post the sarcastic thing at the time. I respect your opinion Fiatjaf (I still disagree that Amethyst should simply shutdown edit functionality, but I do respect your take). However, can you please turn-off the editing spam? It got to the point that I wish that Pokey had settings to forward "Fiatjaf" specific notifications to other clients 🤣

Anthony Accioly 10mo ago

Thanks for the Zap! You're doing pretty well for just three days. Aqlready found your way to WoT relays and some pretty good company.

I like your ideas; all worth considering.

That said, Fiatjaf's take on editing on X was sarcastic (Brazilians sense of humor can sometimes go unnoticed when translated to English... Source: am one).

As for influence and consensus on Nostr, I’d say it’s more of a bazaar than a cathedra. There are a few projects that lean more cathedral-like, but they’re the exception rather than the rule. From a macro perspective, though, it's definitely a bazaar. Plus, it doesn’t have a BDFL.

I mean, Fiatjaf is the brain behind the protocol, and without his tools and libraries, devs like me would be screwed. So he’s as close as you’re going to get to that role. Jack brought in some funding and does play a role, but he’s not "in charge" by any means. There are also some influential devs and funding sources, but overall, Nostr development happens in a decentralized fashion, with a mix of collaboration, design, and thought put into NIPs.

There are pros and cons to this model. Consensus is definitely hard. But on the other hand, we have great people agreeing to disagree on a lot of things while still working hard to grow Nostr in their own way. Having been part of both cathedral-style projects and bazaars under a BDFL, I personally enjoy the free-for-all nature of Nostr development. I don’t envy Fiatjaf. It often means herding cats to get things done. But fair play to him: other than making his opinions clear (and occasionally breaking some toys to prove a point 🤣), he really has created a decentralized ecosystem, even in terms of development. Personally, I prefer it this way. :)

Girino Vey! 10mo ago

just a little bit of history:

Facebook was already the largest social network on the internet when they implemented editing of posts in 2013.

Twitter only implemented editing in 2022.

Editing is NOT a crucial, unnegotiable feature to achieve mainstream adoption. It's a secondary feature that social networks only adopt several years after achieving mainstream adoption.