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i had some fierce exchanges with some monaros yesterday and i just want to reinforce something

i just moved my stack, which i'd pushed all over to xapo bank because the annual fee ($1000 or bitcoin equivalent) came due this month

so i had all of it over there, mostly, well, a lot...

but i don't trust the bank as much as i trust my own cloud hosted lightning node and i just moved the stack across in 4 small payments, the largest being 300ksat

now, 300ksat is not a small amount of money for a momentary payment

so, yeah... if i want to move 0.1btc worth of my stack, i'm not in a rush, and if i don't want anyone to know where the key for that stack lives, i do it over tor

now, explain to me again what use is the monero?

to do equal to the small effort of about 10 lightning transactions at the size that passed just fine just now?

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Discussion

100satsaday 1y ago

There is Monero Classic, enough to say they are centralized like ETH.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

shitcoins are always wrong tradeoffs that destroy the value proposition, that's why bitcoin is always and always will be the cryptocurrency

100satsaday 1y ago

I won’t say they are wrong, they are experimental and will eventually prove your point. I have my own theory of decentralization, I observe those shitcoins to confirm my theory.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

to be fair to fluffybunny and zooko, at the time they seemed like legitimate concerns

but the reality is that UTXOs surf this beautiful medium between public and private in a way that enables full auditability

these other projects also, i see the value of some parts of what they are doing... i remember when i first heard the expression "smart contract" and it sounded magical but again the reality is it's just a database with a property of ownership (cryptographically ensured exclusive control of changing parts of the data)

those smart contract systems have got better and i am even now in the process of learning to work with a rather good one called Move

i think the overall projects using it are losers but the technology will have its value

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

yeah, I used monero some time ago when lightning payments failures was still common (and, in particular, I didnt know how lightning worked). Today the privacy themed shitcoin is totally pointless, lightning offer a full-chain of solutions to move pretty any amount of bitcoin (in small tranches) and it cost less than shitcoining (tx fees to return to bitcoin is obligated cause to gigantic devaluation of the monaros).

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

yup, lightning obsoleted monero

the people who still believe in it don't actually understand how lightning works

LNCope 1y ago

Lol, you think 300k sats is a lot?

So you had to make 4 seperate payments to move a few hundred bucks? Amazing. The futue of digital cash here.

You can send any arbitraily large amount in one shot with Monero or literally any other decade old cryptocurrency.

"i trust my own cloud hosted lightning node"

No normal user is going to run their own lightning node and deal with managing channels. One of many problems with Lightning. Most users will use a LSP or custodian meaning their privacy will be substantially diminished VS even the privacy a public Monero node would offer.

Thats why 90%+ of LN addresses and zaps are custodial. Even the majority of Bitcoin maxis don't want to deal with that shit and you think the average user is going to do it. Lulz

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

the future of digital cash that i was using in 2013. right. got it.

i am literally running my own LN node with three channels. just because not everyone is going to do it means nothing for your argument

neither does "but everyone will use custodial" - and doesn't everyone already custody a lot of money with banks right now? do i need a license and bazillions of dollars and a brown nose from slurping up the arse of bureaucrats to do that? nope. no permission required and nobody can stop me and nobody could stop me.

blockchains were already old hat 10 years ago, and bitcoin is going to have full CTs soon anyway, most likely before 4 years, and then you have private payments via LN, or through trusted third parties who can literally be anyone with a thousand bucks worth of sats or so, currently, you can have ecash mints which are also similar in that it's between you and the mint (but unlike lightning you must use tor to hide your transaction timing, just as you do with monaro), and then you can do big stuff on chain over tor and good luck tracing those

you are flogging a dead horse that has become a skeleton a long time ago if you think that a chain with transactions is better than all the options you have with bitcoin now

LNCope 1y ago

"just because not everyone is going to do it means nothing for your argument"

Yes, it does mean something for my argument. The bar for using LN privately is substantially higher than Monero = less users doing it that way = smaller anonymity set. Look at LN custodial and LSP stats. Virtually everyone is using it this way.

Great you're the 1% of LN users that will be super private in their tiny anon set, congrats

"doesn't everyone already custody a lot of money with banks right now?..."

Irrelevant. Nothing to do with Lightning.

"you can have ecash mints which are also similar in that it's between you and the mint"

Didn't you just say something "no permission required"? Then you immediately bring up ecash. That's in fact what you're doing with ecash to redeem tokens and leave a mint. But even ignoring that having many mints fracture up the anonymity. Its further fractured within each mint itself since each mint has denominated value "buckets" (1,2,4,8,16, etc) The larger token value, the smaller your anonymity set.

Oh yea and public mints are easy targets for money transmitter laws bureaucrats.

Solved using anonymous mint? Welcome to easy rugville

What will your argument be once Monero enables L2s with FCMP++?

Encrypted chain + L2 >>> Transparent chain + L2

Privacy without data leak liabilities of the basechain and actually able to practically enforce it on the basechain for smaller amounts. Bitcoin fees *must* rise over time if you think everyone is going to be using it. The threshold to practically exit will keep rising with it.