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Yeah Monero maxis don't have much of a leg to stand on. Their arguments against bitcoin have all been debunked. And getting private monero has the same obstacles in the way as getting private bitcoin, with the added drawback that it's not pegged to the same price of the white market bitcoin that normies use that gives bitcoin such a huge addressable market.

Hanshan 1y ago

arguments like "pushing normies to adopt a transparent ledger will lead to increased surveillance and control"

have been debunked?

really?

so homie bitches about the State censoring Bitcoin txs (taxation is a form of censorship)

but refuses to acknowledge the advantages of a digital private cash,

because in the end it has to interact with the same fiat, censorsed system?

"can you buy a house with Monero" 🙄

its a big fucking advantage if you can create circular economies that cant be surveilled by EVERYONE.

if you dont understand that, nobody can help you.

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Discussion

Kevin's Bacon 1y ago

It's one thing to work completely outside the system. That's good, that's important, and Monero is useful for that. It's another thing to coopt the system and transform it into something better and more decentralized, that puts limits on their actions. That's what Bitcoin does.

Bitcoin Worm 1y ago

how does bitcoin do this ? how has bitcoin ever limited any action of any government, to date.

reminder, you can't use instances of private use since monero does this better and such an example would only support the case for Xmr

Kevin's Bacon 1y ago

"To date?" You're incapable of considering the future?

Hanshan 1y ago

Explain to me how bitcoin is going to "co-op the system and transform it into something better"

So far I don't think you all have thought much beyond:

Number Go Up ->

we all get rich ->

Trojan Horse blahblah ->

magic fairy dust ->

the bankers who run the world go away quietly saying "oh well, they said they lost their Bitcoin in a boating accident. what could we do?"

tbh y'all have no plausible argument this is going to happen at all.

Its a statement of faith, not of fact and it's not supported by much except saifedean-inspired hopium.

Which is exactly why Monero is important and anyone portraying themselves as a Cypherpunk shouldn't be fading it.

Kevin's Bacon 1y ago

Oh my peabrained brother in Satoshi, you have much to learn and yet little patience. Bitcoin makes it in the evil governments' best interests to own bitcoin. They cannot control it, but its NGU is too strong for them to ignore, so they will eventually adopt it, just like all the corporations that are adopting it right now. They will have no choice that fulfills their greed better. Governments around the world are already talking about using it as a treasury asset or a strategic reserve, including the United States empire. This strengthens faith in Bitcoin for normies, and it also puts those entities in a position where they want bitcoin to succeed for their own power and influence. The only way for bitcoin to succeed is if they play by the rules of the Bitcoin network. The transparency of the network allows us to audit these institutions, and the rules, backed by their own greed, enforce that they cannot create any bitcoin collateral out of thin air. This imposes limitations in the LONG RUN on these corporate and state entities, enforced by other entities doing the same thing, including individual people, around the entire world. Bitcoin uses greed as a tool to limit greed's power to control.

But you wouldn't understand because of your willful ignorance and your blind assumption that we haven't thought it through. I think you're projecting quite frankly.

Hanshan 1y ago

obviously Monero is useful. what do you want, a medal for stating the obvious?

This doesn't answer my question at all. It's still just

"They buy Bitcoin and then give up trying to control people because Bitcoin"

Kind of like they started using the internet (an open protocol )and then gave up trying to control the internet? (they didn't)

Nowhere in history has this ever happened.

What they do is they lock down the on off ramps and make self-custody and transacting P2P onerous and difficult. People will voluntarily opt in to custodial solutions for the sake of conveniency.

Then they continue business as usual on top of the new asset class.

It's already happening.

People who insist on self-custody and transacting in a sovereign way will find it difficult to find a transaction partner and be socially excluded.

In the end that makes them economically irrelevant.

But sure *I'm* the one being willfully ignorant 🙄

Hanshan 1y ago

I mean ffs

these people can *create* money out of thin air

and your thesis is "theyll opt to protect their Bitcoin investment instead"

and then you say *other people are ignorant? 😑