Subnostr

But what is he saving us from? Why do we need to be saved at all? Why all the preaching and warnings about hell if it is not real?

Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to believe there is no hell and struggled with that a lot. When it comes down to it though if you believe the Bible is God's word, as many do, we have to take hell seriously.

I will not go through every verse you posted here, right now at least, but this is just the first one Romans 5:8-9

English Standard Version

8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

It says right there he died to save us from the wrath of God. What do you say the wrath of God is?

Also why do we need forgiveness of sins if there is no hell?

So you believe everyone goes to heaven?

How do you come to terms with this passage? Matthew 7:13

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many."

What do you think "destruction" means? That sermon I posted goes over this on part of it.

I am seriously curious what your thoughts are on this? I hope I do not sound combative at all. It is not my intention to.

Nobody 2y ago

No I'm not a universalist. I don't believe that everyone goes to heaven. I believe that that Mat 7:13 says what a plain reading of it means. That those who die without Christ are destroyed.

I believe there is a hell, but I reject any insinuation that God (as one who let's the human image bearers that He created and deeply loves more than I could ever imagine) sends people there to suffer eternal conscious torment. I believe they might go there suffer for their sins, but are then destroyed. Fire consumes, and when it runs out of fuel (or sinfulness) then it goes out. Jude mentions Soddom and Gomorrah in reference to hell and suggests that they are an example of eternal punishment. Are they still there eternally smouldering for us to look at and say, "oh we shouldn't commit sins"? No, they're not. They are consumed for all of eternity.

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Discussion

Willy Cooper 2y ago

So you take that destroyed to mean just erased from existence? That pastor covers that in the sermon I posted if you are interested in another point of view.

But the obvious question to your answer here is, if God loves us so much why would he destroy anyone? Why wouldn't he just save everyone?

Nobody 2y ago

I tried to watch it I couldn't get far. I used to believe and street evangelise with the exact same theology. It wasn't easy for me to change my mind but it was freeing.

It would be unloving to let unrepentant sinners stay in the presence of God.

I'm not sold on the idea that we are eternal.

But separate from that God doesn't need a firey pit to send people to though. I mean, I wouldn't want to be Hitler in His presence. Hosea, God's chosen prophet cursed himself and said he was from a perverse people the first time he saw God and his ruling council... And that's a man of God, imagine if you'd done evil... But what about a little old granny who did her best and never harmed anyone but also never heard the name of Christ, or only heard it from an abusive priest/pastor/parent so could never believe in His love for herself? I have no real basis other than God's compassion and the fact that His word says that He wills all will be saved. For the granny I suspect there will be a burning off in His presence and if she wants to endure to hang onto the love of God that will be revealed then she can stay... But there's no way say Hitler could hold on, not after the pain and suffering he caused. I believe he will want out of the refining fire of God's presence and that's what he will get ie annihilation. I'm not sold on the idea of a post-mortem chance at salvation. That bit is my opinion I can't back it biblically so I hold it very lightly. All I know is that on that day we will see what God does with unrepentant sinners some of them people who we know and love in this life and will reaffirm His glory, love and justice.