Replying to Avatar monk_cactus

Claim 1) is not refutable. It’s a hypothetical statement about the future. But regardless, we all know the average person will adopt the most convenient setup. So either self-sovereign is more convenient, or it won’t be the most popular. And that really has nothing to do with what is most adopted currently.

Claim 2) is obviously true. As far as privacy and zaps go, I doubt I will ever send an anonymous zap. I want the poster to know I zapped them, just like I want them to know I’m the one who replied to their post.

Claim 3) is claim 1) rephrased. And as I said before, it has little to do with entrenchment. The most convenient solution gets the most users. Period. The only thing that can change that is if users are in a hostile environment.

Claim 4) is probably true. But who cares? If you’ve already traded privacy and sovereignty for convenience, not sure why it’s a concern if custodians are being efficient.

I don’t think Claim 5) is true. It’s not like custodians are sucking up funding that would otherwise go to developers of self sovereign set ups. As soon as a convenient self sovereign set up emerges, it would get a lot of users. This is like saying because fiat exists there’s less pressure and funding for bitcoin development. That doesn’t add up to me. There’s people that care about privacy and sovereignty and people that don’t.

Now how about this? Any self-sovereign setup would require the user to already have bitcoin and make an initial base chain transaction right? In terms of on boarding non bitcoiners to zaps and lightning, it’s great that people are working on custodial solutions that can make this as easy as possible for newbies

1) We're not really talking "the average person", we're talking those of us already on Nostr and thus early adopters/more hardcore Bitcoiners. If hardcore Bitcoiners are cheering on custodial adoption and championing it, it will lead to less people even exploring/trying self-sovereign setups.

5) These companies are raising money from VCs and gaining fees from users that could otherwise go to self-sovereign setups, FOSS projects, and devs. It is a bit of a zero-sum game here - the more traction custodial wallets get, the less eyes, money, and devs go towards self-sovereign setups.

6) Why in the world are we happy that custodians (the "3rd parties" Satoshi *made Bitcoin to route around*) are the preferred onboarding method for new users? Onboarding someone to WoS doesn't even get them Bitcoin, nor does it even mean they will ever use Bitcoin. They are *entirely* at WoS mercy for custody, privacy, rug pulls, etc. I cannot, ever, get behind the stance that onboarding noobs to custodial wallets is the best thing and something to be cheered on. If we can't *actually onboard them to Bitcoin* why even do it?

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

Interesting points

#[0]

What I said re: convenience holds for the average person, and clearly also for bitcoiners. When presented with the problem of “how do I get an lnurl to get zaps?”, it’s clear what people chose.

So WoS and get alby are sucking up the money that would otherwise go to developers of self-sovereign set ups? Give me a break.

Why are we happy that custodians (the "3rd parties" Satoshi *made Bitcoin to route around*) are the preferred onboarding method for new users?

Happiness has nothing to do with it. It’s about practicality and being realistic. There is a huge part of the population that does not care about bitcoin, privacy, and sovereignty. And they never will unless they get burned. The only reason they would use bitcoin is because it can do something for them (eg zapping, boosting a podcast, buying from nostr marketplace). I still want these people on nostr because I want value 4 value to reach as many people as possible. I want more customers in the future nostr marketplace. I don’t see how you on board a non bitcoiner to lightning without custodians. And if they get burned, well then that’s the best lesson anyone could ever have about the importance of sovereignty.

Phoenix? Breez? Blixt? SBW?

Lots of great non-custodial options for Lightning if people can wait for zap receive support and focus on just spending and receiving tips.