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I dunno man, I've had a back and forth or two with you, and have observed some involving other Monero bros on here, and you usually harp on the point "the sender knowing where to send to the recipient is tracing" which honestly I think does you a disservice. The last one we had you made a good solid genuine set of arguments, but usually it's the same tired one.

I'm curious why you feel the need to make better arguments? You're either right or wrong. Seems like a crusade, working back from your preferred conclusion, if you're having to make new arguments for your point over time. Learning and understanding deeper is one thing, finding new angles to come to the desired conclusion is dishonest IMO.

Super Testnet 5mo ago

> I think [it] does you a disservice

I think it helps a lot. It illustrates a critical privacy flaw that monero has and lightning doesn't

Some monero bros don't yet seem to "get" that letting the sender trace their funds to its destination (the recipient's pubkey) is a huge problem that tracers use to find and convict monero users

By pointing it out over and over again, I think I am helping them learn the huge problems with their preferred privacy solution and showing them a viable alternative

> why [do] you feel the need to make better arguments?

Because I like to improve over time, including at arguing

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Discussion

MrWonderland 5mo ago 💬 2

But how do you proof that you send someone funds (in LN)? That is a necessary feature for people doing business, isn't it?

Also yes, you can proof that you sent a certain amount to a certain address. But you can't proof who owns the address and if that money actually gets used/moved.

Super Testnet 5mo ago

> how do you proof that you send someone funds (in LN)?

Typically, the recipient gives the sender a receipt, and cannot sweep the funds from the LN htlc without doing so. Notably, there is an exception: it's possible (and common) to set up a payment that does not require a receipt from the recipient. If you do that then you simply do not get a proof of payment.

> [In monero] you can't proof who owns [an] address [or] if that money actually gets used/moved

There are four techniques outlined on moneroleaks.xyz for finding out who owns an address and/or if the money sent to that address actually got used/moved. These techniques have all been used to trace and convict monero users. I won't let monero bros pretend to have any intellectual honesty while they continually ignore widely known and documented circumstances while insisting they are impossible.

MrWonderland 5mo ago

What four techniques? What are you talking about?

Your whole blog/website with those supposed leaks is just utter nonsense.

If there were these techniques, then why does ChainAnalysis exclude Monero from it's Crypto Crime Report 2025?

Spoiler: Because they can't trace it.

Pretty much all (publicly known) cases where law enforcement was able to trace funds through Monero were due to outside metadata and timing. And there is nothing that could stop that (except people not using KYC exchanges and transparent blockchains).

It is mind blowing that you have the audacity to use the words 'intellectual honesty' 🤯

Your claims have been debunked from multiple parties, but you still insist all the 'Monero Bros' are wrong. Dude, look into the mirror.