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You're welcome. I am referring to Rome when I say that. Canon 9 of the Council of Trent anathametizes anyone who holds to justification by faith alone. It is an explicit rejection of the apostles' teaching and of the only gospel that can save.

If justification is not by faith alone, then it is of faith plus works; and if justification is of faith and works, then every man is effectively a savior to himself, the gospel is no longer good news, and Christ died for no purpose (Gal. 2:21).

Rome may have a continuity of their institution, but they cannot claim a continuity of faith with the apostles in the matter of justification.

It is the doctrine on which the church stands or falls, and Rome cannot stand.

Happy to share more if you're interested.

Jared Logan ☧ 2mo ago

I love this conversation nostr:nprofile1qqs25j24kwmq0xhre77xsvzpvfwlrs5aevl9qsrf253htdlua80efhsppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qyt8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68yetvd96x2uewdaexwtcvxpwsq and forgive me if I'm mistaken here, but even Luther himself initially said: “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone." And “Faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing… It is impossible to separate works from faith, quite as impossible as to separate heat and light from fire.”

Trent Canon 9 doesn’t reject justification by faith, but justification by faith alone in the sola fide sense that excludes grace-enabled works as part of the process. We’re saved by grace alone, through faith that is never alone—it’s living, obedient, and fruitful (James 2:24; Romans 2:6–8). Works don’t *earn* salvation; they’re the fruit of grace (Eph 2:8–10).

Pre reformation consensus,from what I can tell, was pretty clear on this. Id quote Clement of Rome or Augustine for example; “Grace, unless we do what God commands, does not justify.”

From what I can tell no one in the first 1,000 years of the church taught sola fide as “faith apart from obedience.” They all saw faith, hope, and love as a living unity.

In the end, I'm not seeking forgiveness only. But transformation - that my faith can work through love.

By all means, happy to keep hearing your perspective here—iron sharpens iron and this is very similar to my internal debates I had with myself coming into this.

God bless. 🙏

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Jared Logan ☧ 2mo ago

nostr:nprofile1qqs25j24kwmq0xhre77xsvzpvfwlrs5aevl9qsrf253htdlua80efhsppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qyt8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68yetvd96x2uewdaexwtcvxpwsq Thank you again for engaging. Just to build on this;

I went to your church’s site, opened the Baptist Faith & Message 2000, and read it slowly. (bfm.sbc.net/bfm2000) I didn’t find a rejection of works. But I found commands, duties, obligations, and progress — all flowing from grace.

We may be closer than you think. It says there;

IV. Salvation – C. Sanctification - “Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart… and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit…”

That’s grace-enabled growth, not self-effort.

Same with:

XI. Evangelism – “It is the duty of every follower of Christ…”

XIII. Stewardship – “They are under obligation to serve Him with time, talents, and possessions…”

XV. Social Order – “All Christians are under obligation to seek to make the will of Christ supreme…”

XV. Family - "A husband is to love.. provide.. lead.. Parents are to teach, discipline, model.."

Progress. Duty. Obligation.

I guess I struggle to see how these aren't works as fruit of faith. We both reject salvation by self-effort. We both affirm works as necessary fruit. Right?

Faith through grace, reflected in works. Sola Gratia. 🙏

Josh 2mo ago

You are exactly right about Luther and exactly right that Canon 9 specifically rejects justification by faith alone (sola fide) and not justification by faith (which is what Rome holds).

The disagreement is not over whether works have any place in the Christian faith, but it is over the place of works strictly in the matter of justification. Rome teaches that good works are necessary to justification, with the caveat that those works which are necessary to justification are worked in them by Christ, as a fruit of grace (as you said). Protestantism teaches that a man is justified by faith alone, apart from any works, but solely resting on Christ’s work accomplished for us (Phil 3:9; Titus 3:5). Rome teaches justification by infusion of righteousness; Protestantism teaches justification by imputation of Christ’s righteousness (Rom. 4:5, 8). For Rome, justification is a process; for Protestants, an instantaneous event.

Protestants understand faith as a mere instrument, as an open hand receiving Christ’s righteousness; Rome conceives of faith as a meritorious work affording a person a title to justification (faith formed by love).

We both agree that saving faith is never alone but will always work. Where we disagree is in seeing good works as the fruit of justification vs. seeing good works as necessary causes to justification. Faith produces good works of man, but faith itself is not a good work of man.

As Luther said, “[Faith] is a work of God, not of man, as Paul teaches (Eph. 2:8). The other works He works through us and with our help, but this one He works in us and without our help.” -The Babylonian Captivity of the Church

In the end, if the gospel is to remain good news, justification must be grounded solely on what Christ has done for us, and not on anything He does in us (Phil. 3:8-9). Here is the disagreement. What Rome teaches is actually a form of the Galatian heresy, wherein we begin by grace and finish with works (again, in the matter of justification), rather than the Christian gospel, which is all of grace and all of Christ.

Jared Logan ☧ 2mo ago

I appreciate your perspective and input! And glad that we can have open discussion about this. All love Josh! Cheers brother! 🙏

Josh 2mo ago

👍Hope you'll read Perkins. Justification is the marrow of divinity.