Subnostr

In the beginning God created, the impossible conjugation of past, present, and future that is the Tetragrammaton, in the beginning was the word. . .(and something to the effect of all things were made through him and nothing was made without him 1john I think), a thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years. I think there are some others but that’s just off the top of my head.

And we’ve agreed that God is The Creator. If so, why would we think anything was made that was not made by Him?

I think the error made is that because all is known, all is determined.

Neopatriarch 2y ago

# Time

>In the beginning God created,

Yeah He did.

I'm struck that your first verse reference is to God being in time. Specifically, _the beginning_.

>the impossible conjugation of past, present, and future that is the Tetragrammaton,

Do you understand this? It's "impossible"? If it happened it would be possible by definition.

I agree with you though, it is impossible. The past is a memory, and the future hasn't happened yet. There is only now. What theory of time do you hold? And why?

This impossibility didn't come from the Bible. It sounds more like platonism. Are you a Platonist?

I think, among the few things God cannot do are logical impossibilities. So there are no round squares and the like... At least there are no examples of such in scripture.

>in the beginning was the word. . .

You've repeated this temporal reference for God almost like it is foundational.

>(and something to the effect of all things were made through him and nothing was made without him 1john I think),

I'll stipulate to that.

The very act of going from uncreated to created is something that, as far as I know, takes place in time. Assuming time is created is problematic. When would there have been time to do so?

>a thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years.

This second Biblical reference speaks to how God experiences time. We understand this. School year one took forever, year 12 was over in a moment. Now I'm barely done paying taxes, when I have to start again. And sometimes, time slows down. Like when I cut my hand and I could see ripples in my skin ahead of the blade.

What none of these verses say is what you wrote, _ not bound by time_. I sure wish you would define that. I don't know what that means. It sounds like another impossibility.

>I think there are some others but that’s just off the top of my head.

I like those, I'm just not sure why you think they make your point.

>And we’ve agreed that God is The Creator. If so, why would we think anything was made that was not made by Him?

I'm not sure that time is a thing to be created.

>I think the error made is that because all is known, all is determined.

Is this your position? I'm not sure what you mean. So I'll wait before I comment.

>And we’ve agreed that God is The Creator.

I'll stipulate to that. That's sound Bible doctrine right there.

>If so, why would we think anything was made that was not made by Him?

Perhaps you understand time better than I.

>I think the error made is that because all is known, all is determined.

That's a claim. It's also platonic. Are you sure you're not a Platonist?

The Bible expression is that God _tests to know_. For example:

>Deuteronomy 8:2 And you shall remember the whole way that the LORD your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, **testing you to know** what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not.

By the way, if God can create something new, the future is not settled, and Open Theism is true. IE If there was a time when God hadn't created and then decides to create creation to which it sounds like you stipulate to. Unless you think God has no free will.

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Discussion

Boatface 2y ago

Let’s start with the Tetragrammaton. God’s name is the past, present, and future conjugations of the verb “to be.” It is impossible to be is and was and is to come at the same time, but with God all things are possible.

I don’t think I’m a platonist but we’re awash in that ethos here in the states and imagine there are pockets of it still remaining. I try to take a first century Jewish perspective to philosophy and may succeed at times.

I don’t claim SME status on time. I’ve thought about it quite a bit which doesn’t make me an authority but does put me in a good place to discuss what I think about it. Time started at the beginning when God created therefore God created time.

I would point out that scripture never says something, in the strictest sense. It is words that we interpret. Just like “open theism” never appears in scripture nor the statement that God doing something new means the future is unsettled. That does not invalidate your argument but it is how you interpret the implications of what you read in scripture. This is often a kind of argument used to create distance between the reader and the Bible; to take the pinch out of Biblical instruction. For me it is a mindset to try to be aware of what I bring to the scriptures.

I think my argument probably is “all is known (to God) but not all is determined.”

I believe God must exist inside and outside time.

I’m happy to hit any points I missed.

Neopatriarch 2y ago

# Boatman

## YHWH

I don't doubt what you say about the structure of the Name. It fits well with His self description, without indicating that time is a thing in itself, or that it is fixed and that God is not free to act.

>I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

## Platonism

Augustine was a platonic theologian. He said:

>Moreover, if those who are called philosophers, and especially the Platonists, have said anything that is true and in harmony with our faith, we are not only not to shrink from it, but to claim it for our own use from those who have unlawful possession of it.

And he certainly did claim it, and that's how many such ideas entered; extra-biblical.

## Time

I don't know what an SME status is.

I think about time too. All I know about time is present. Phrases like "not bound by time" and "outside of time" seem like things of science fantasy rather than Bible exegesis.

>I think my argument probably is "all is known (to God) but not all is determined."

If the future is known exhaustively, it is determined in some sense. I don't think you can escape that. You may hold that God is not the determiner, but that doesn't change that it must be determined somehow.

>I believe God must exist inside and outside time.

I think there's only evidence, Biblical evidence, for half of that.

## Conclusion

Thanks for the dialog. I enjoy it.

Blessings to you

Boatface 2y ago

Sorry, SME = subject matter expert. I was trying to type less and had to write all this to explain it! I’m the heart and soul of efficiency! 😄