what did he get wrong?
Discussion
I appreciate you engaging and the follow-up question.
I will respond accordingly, I have been extremely busy with work and family matters, and I didn't want to answer you on the surface as I take this seriously, but I also want to let you know that I have seen your message and am not ignoring it.
Many blessings to you. I like your content and follow you. I hope will have a meaningful, edifying, and God honoring discussion.
He seems to describe some fringe minority of so called “Calvinist,” rather than explaining what the majority of Calvinists actually believe, or reject in that matter. Listen to the opening statement of R.C. Sproul on the Man’s Radical Fallenness regarding Luther, Calvin, Augustine, etc. vs the ultimate authority of the Holy Scriptures. “None of them individually, and all of them collectively, are to be regarded as infallible teaching authority.” Period! We reject all Calvinists writings contradictory to the Bible. We understand that these were flawed man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axo7sSW4nlQ&t=74
Hyper Calvinism is not orthodox and historic Calvinism, and I use this term reluctantly out of necessity because of the fallacy and the misconceptions displayed by the youtuber, which are perhaps deliberate and intentional as he doesn’t appear that ignorant to me.
We preach the gospel to all, to as many as we can. Listen to John Piper on evangelism and predestination:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK_YIDMQuJc&t=279
Romans 10:13-15 ESV
«For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”»
We don’t know who will believe. We preach indiscriminately. God decides! We obey the command with gladness to be the messengers of the gospel of Christ!
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On Sovereignty...
Who are the Calvinists who say “because God is sovereign, He cannot do this or that?” What specific doctrine is he referring to?
Also, he is making pointless arguments by playing on words and semantics instead of focusing on substance. The Trinity is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible either but it is powerfully inferred and thought in the Bible. Also, plenty of verses to support God's sovereignty. And, yes, God can’t do certain things; God cannot contradict Himself, for instance. God cannot die. God cannot sin. That’s not an a Calvinist’s concept; it is a Biblical reality.
Job 42:2
«I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.»
How does that play out with men’s free will?
It is a mystery that we are willing to live with.
MacArthur’s INCREDIBLE Take on Arminianism Vs Calvinism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEH-X2rP0WM&t=91
Either way, even under Arminian doctrines, it is still a mystery how God’s sovereign will and purpose is done while men have free will.
Daniel 4:34-35 ESV
«At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”»
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About his reference to Psalm 135:6...
Psalm 135:6 ESV
«Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.»
It is both doctrinal statement as well as contrast to false gods. That’s that. I don’t understand what’s the issue he is trying to make out of this in this section of the video as in other sections. The sovereignty of God is throughout the Bible, and very similar verses are found in:
Psalm 135:5-6 ESV
«For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.»
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Calvinism doesn't reject that people are and should be accountable for choices actions, quite the opposite, people are accountable before a Holy God and without an excuse according to Biblical teaching, which all orthodoxy affirms. The fact that some are not saved is because of their sin, unrepentant hearts of stone, and unbelief, rejecting Christ.
Here are some more from John Macarthur and John Piper:
John MacArthur- Amazing Sermon on Election
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8jQKigWZNo
Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility (John 3:11-21)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1PTvMkEyl4
The Difference Between Calvinists and Arminians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-C33QrDxNc&t=750
The very own words of our Lord Christ:
Luke 13:3 ESV
«No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.»
Matthew 11:28 ESV
«Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.»
The general calling and invitation is to everyone, so no one has an excuse.
By why don’t they come, believe, repent?
John 10:25-29 ESV
«Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.»
And yet, we do believe and affirm the following:
Romans 10:13ESV
«For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
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God enables our will because it is corrupt in its natural state, it will not and cannot choose God, although God commands it.
1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV
«The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.»
It is not that God can't handle rejection. He lovingly saves people because otherwise all people will perish. And He will be just to send everyone in hell as we have all sinned. He saves out of love, not because He can't handle rejection.
Ezekiel 33:11 ESV
«Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?»
2 Peter 3:9 ESV
«The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.»
John 6:44 ESV
«No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.»
John 6:65 ESV
«And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” »
Ephesians 1:11 ESV
«In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,»
Yes, we don't win souls for Jesus, we are faithful to preach, being used as instruments, and God will save as many as He has appointed to eternal life.
Acts 2:38-39 ESV
«And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” »
Acts 13:48 ESV
«And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.»
1 Corinthians 1:23-24 ESV
«but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.»
He was able to persuade 10,000 people. What an arrogant statement. Most of the so called Calvinists I know, listen to, etc. speak with humility about our own salvation and the salvation of others when it comes to evangelism, etc. as we give all glory to God for this undeserved grace, knowing that if He didn’t quicken our hearts to respond to the gospel call of repentance and faith, we would have died in our sins and be sent, deservingly so, to hell because of our sinfulness (born sinful and sinning afterward because of our utterly corrupt nature) and rebellion against a Holy God.
No real Calvinist thinks that we shouldn’t evangelize. This is nonsense. We already covered that.
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Yes, God allows sins, otherwise He would stop it, but He is not the author of sin by not preventing it as He has the power to do so, and in many cases He does so but not always. It is according to His sovereign will and purpose.
Calvinists don't decide on what God should be; we study scripture and come to sound understanding of God's character, will, sovereignty, etc.
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How does God work and makes things happen according to him without canceling our will? And I agree that God doesn’t cancel our will. That is a vague statement that explains nothing. I already covered that under the points of God’s sovereignty.
Listen to “What is Free Will” by R.C.Sproul, which is from the same lecture series right before the Man’s Radical Fallenness. This one is a bit more philosophical, and it sets the stage for the the Man’s Radical Fallenness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcyttnC6cjg&t=21
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Calvinists instituted slavery in the US?!?!
Calvinists cheat on their wives?!? I find this to be very unfair, cheap shot at Calvinists. Shame. Arminians don’t do that, right? Very ignorant.
Final blessings and benediction to you!
Ephesians 1:3-12 ESV
«Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.»
I have watched tons of R.C. videos and read many of his books. This is when I was considering if what you believe is true. But I never got any of that stuff by praying before and reading the Bible on my own.
The main point that separates Calvinist from other believers is they think it is impossible for anyone to come to God unless God "elects" them. This is the distinction I use. I don't care about hyper Calvinism or anything like that. This is the line where I say you are wrong if you believe that. I would recommend not isolating passages as well. Just showing a bunch of isolated passages doesn't do anyone any good.
And every singe Calvinist I talk to says, "we don't believe this or that" or "you don't understand Calvinism" This is because many believe different things. But that main point is where I would draw the line. You would call it limited atonement most likely.
First off, I was responding directly to your question as to what I think he got wrong, and one of the points I made is that he describes some fringe minority of so called “Hyper Calvinists” rather than explaining what the majority of Calvinists actually believe and what the Doctrines of Grace are.
Whether you care about Hyper Calvinism or not is sort of secondary to the discussion as you obviously posted the video, but I was responding to the content and substance of what and how it was covered.
He seems to attack and mock functional Calvinists as opposed to focusing on the doctrines.
I am not just showing bunch of passages; instead, with brevity in mind, I was listing passages relevant to the points I was making and defending, assuming that you or the other readers would have sufficient Bible knowledge to read and discern for yourselves, considering the entirety of the Bible.
And, yes, many people believe different things, that’s why we need to focus on the doctrines themselves and not on people, and more ignorantly, hypothetical and subjective non-sense.
But the youtuber generalized and portrayed Calvinists in a horrible and subjective way, didn’t he, instead of focusing on the actual doctrines.
According to him, there are so many atheists in the world because of Calvinists, and Calvinists have “blow-up dolls for wives,” and Calvinists instituted slavery in the US? Just some of the things he says, to list a few... And you decided to post and propagate this.
On you last point, I would tie that more to the doctrine of Unconditional Election, which is also linked to Limited Atonement.
So what exactly do you believe? I take it you call yourself a Calvinist. Honestly Calvinist all seem to believe different things, this is why I focused on the limited atonement. I honestly don't understand how people can believe this and think it is awful and makes God a monster. It's for sure not the God I know and love.
I believe the Bible. All of it. Jesus laid down His life for His sheep, for many, for the church.
His atonement was effectual and particular. He paid the due penalty for all who believe. He did not pay for the sins of unbelievers.
I don't understand why would that make a comparisonate God, Who rescues sinner from His wrath, a monster?
also another big thing most Calvinist believe is that God micromanages everything. Like everything that happens is because God ordained it. This would mean even things like child rape. It's sick man to think God would ordain such things.
Evil sinners who commit such heinous and wicked crimes will pay their due penalties in hell, and I do believe there are degrees of punishment inhelll, and they deserve the worst.
People are fully responsible for sins committed, and yet that doesn't interfere with God's sovereignty. It is mystery how that works, but I am willing to accept it by faith as I see it throughout the Bible.
Can God prevent things from happening? Yes, He can. Does God intervene and prevent certain things from happening? I believe, the answer is resoundingly, YES.
Does He always do that. NO.
Why and when He decides to intervene is up to Him, according to the counsel of His will.
Again, it is a hard concept for me to grasp as well, like why the perfect God allows so much pain and suffering, but I know that He will eradicate evil and restore full righteousness.