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Do you not subscribe to the idea that the BTC price you get is the BTC price you deserve?

Sure, it won’t be ideal that mega-corporations and the top 10% of wealth holders buy up a massive amount of the available supply while prices are absurdly undervalued.

But they were quicker to catch on than the average person who’s clueless about the fiat con.

One caveat I’ll make is that anyone disingenuously discouraging Bitcoin adoption while simultaneously secretly buying it is unacceptable, IMO.

PAGAN WOLF 2y ago

I subscribe to the fact that Satoshis Vision for 10 m$ a coin provides an opportunity for financial freedom

If someone parts with $2400 USD They get 0.1 BTC

which at 10m$ is one million USD value that individual holds

That’s the price the individual deserves and grants power to the individual

If Bitcoin price remains low (under 1 m$) and USD continues to limp on

Bitcoin then provides financial freedom for a lot less time until the individual needs to either sell it or spend it

Bitcoin is freedom IF!!!! The price can set you free

Until 1 Bitcoin means 10 houses or 100 houses

Elon Musk has certainly attacked it whilst buying

The only way to combat that is that Bitcoin provides many with higher capital to make more freedom based moves

If corporations hold it all… then public is basically back where they started… looking to become financially free and Bitcoin may not be available

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Discussion

Edward Lightninghands 2y ago

Respectfully, sir, I disagree.

I think you are conflating wealth with economic freedom.

I think wealth is one of the only ways to currently achieve any real degree of economic freedom in the fiat system, and I fully agree that Bitcoin is any ordinary person’s best hope of ever accumulating wealth and preserving its value over time.

Perhaps we simply have different definitions, but I do not think you need significant wealth in order to be economically free.

(Side note: financial freedom is a slightly different concept to me, meaning the ability to live one’s life without being beholden to working for more money or relying on another entity to provide for you)

To me, economic freedom simply means the ability to participate in the global marketplace free from coercion, compulsion or manipulation.

Bitcoin is therefore already a path to economic freedom, regardless of its $-denominated price. You have absolute autonomy to transact with whomever you please. Its value in that specific transaction is determined by the judgment of you and of the other party.

Bitcoin is not important because its price will go up, its price will go up because it is important. It is important because it frees any person who opts into it to operate as an independent economic actor and cut out the leeches which currently constantly corrode their wealth.

It will never be too late to buy Bitcoin and become economically free. But I concede it will become increasingly unlikely to achieve (my definition of) financial freedom solely by investing in it.

Thoughts? I appreciate the debate 🙏

PAGAN WOLF 2y ago

Happy to have a friendly hit up on it. BTW that was a good read and of course I humbly disagree 🤣

A path to economic freedom requires something which Carries value to secure that freedom.

As you mentioned price will go up because it’s important. And the underlying importance is financial freedom

Bitcoin being the most expensive thing in an economy allows all aspects of a market to be exposed and valued in it

If Bitcoin were $10 then real estate market can never be valued in it (real estate is important for human freedom)

If Bitcoin were $10 then retirement funds cannot be expensed to it

This example goes to any industry

So they would have to be valued in something else big enough to secure its “value” and value is attained by working hours + investments by our fellow humans

To transact freely using Bitcoin it has to be big enough for everyone to participate. You can’t have a $1 Bitcoin price with only 21 million coins circulating

You and I could do transactions with one another… But without us being able to spread transactions to a bigger economy how do we secure financial freedom for others?

The others will have to use something else, taking away the “Bitcoin is for everybody” narrative

Bitcoin has to be $10-100 million to infinity per coin to enable a Global Free market as you said participating in a Free market without Coercion

Without a Big enough price on the asset called Bitcoin, those markets cannot value themselves in it and it wouldn’t be attractive. So those markets inherently value themselves in highly manipulated USD at the moment

The only way you get to “1 bitcoin is 100 houses” and not saying 100 houses is a billion USD

Is the asset class must value itself in Bitcoin over USD

in the reality we are in EVERYTHING is valued in USD it’s infinite supply at $1 = $1 means everybody can value itself in dollars

In comes Bitcoin at 100 million per coin. Then all of real estate can back houses with it, hedge funds can back retirement with it

Because you won’t need a lot of Bitcoin to secure value if it’s 100m per coin

So freedom comes to those who can compete in an economy the best

Having the most USD at the moment gives unlimited choices

If Bitcoin is $1 per coin sure you can transact freely in a free market, but nothing can be valued in Bitcoin

We want 1 house equals 0.1 BITCOIN to be the value

Not 500k USD is one house

The only way freedom is secured is if everything is priced in Bitcoin and that requires out valuing the old system

Everybody needs bitcoin to achieve a free market. It just needs to be big enough for all to participate. In our reality unfortunately that means it’s USD value needs to be astronomical for all to say “we want that instead”

Edward Lightninghands 2y ago

I sincerely appreciate this - a more engaging and intelligent Bitcoin conversation than I’ve ever had in real life. I’m grateful to be on your side!

I genuinely think the key here is to disregard measuring in dollars. (Which I know is near-impossible, given that it’s all we’ve ever known…)

People will start to value things using satoshis as a unit of account BECAUSE using Bitcoin is fair, transparent, and predictable.

The end goal is for everything to be priced in Bitcoin - agreed. But it seems to me like you are trying to convert from Bitcoin into a dollar price in order to make the numbers comprehensible.

The USD/BTC exchange rate is more a function of how much people trust in Bitcoin’s future purchasing power than it is “how much of the world’s stuff Bitcoin is currently worth divided by the BTC supply”.

Bitcoin is worth ALL of the stuff, already. It’s just not priced into the rate because people don’t actually trust BTC yet.

As people gain trust in Bitcoin, it will actually make more sense to value an item in BTC than in dollars, because you know there are currently ~19.3M BTC in existence and if you have 1.93 BTC, you effectively own 1 10-millionth of the entire purchasing power of the world.

Based on that alone, you can decide for yourself how much you value whatever you want to buy and consequently how many of your precious sats you’re willing to part with in order to get it. Dollars need not enter the equation AT ALL.

If you have $100B today, how much of the world’s purchasing power do you own? Even if you could answer that, how much would you own tomorrow when the Fed prints another $10T one-time because “crisis”? It would be significantly less, and you can’t do anything about it.

That simply cannot happen in Bitcoin. Bitcoin deserves the trust the the USD currently has; the USD/BTC rate goes up as people realize it.

Eventually people who trust BTC won’t be willing to accept any amount of USD for their sats. Once everybody is on that page, BTC = $♾️. $100M/BTC is too bearish, my friend!

PAGAN WOLF 2y ago

Very good conversation

Agreed we are trying to go to the same place

I could go again… but these are long and we have the same goal

My closing statement

Imperial to metric system

You need to convert the new against the old to find a value structure

Bitcoin is an infinite value in USD

You’ll still need a value

0.00000001 of a Bitcoin can buy everything in the world there is no economy

A fixed value of Bitcoin buys a house will occur and over time you’ll need less bitcoin to buy a house

But to get there

It needs be compared to an old system

500k USD used to buy a house

Now it’s 0.001 for example

Bitcoin 1st needs to out power the dollar and in human standards, coz we love shiny expensive shit 🤣🤣 has to be TRILLIONS OF $ to be able to compare

That’s my argument for why $ is most important

Eventually we both end up right

We on same team so… this was fun

Feel free to announce a closer and we’ll shake hands to our next friendly battle