Replying to Avatar Rusty Russell

First up, I want to recognize that this is an uncomfortable topic! Bitcoin is inevitably changing towards user-pays, and that's not all positive. But facts we don't like are still facts: can't engineer a solution if we can't think about the problems.

There are three kinds of bitcoiners.

A. Those who can afford any fee.

B. Those who can afford a UTXO, but not often.

C. Those who can't afford a UTXO.

Nobody worries about the A group (and in the early days, that was everyone). Obviously Lightning (my area!) caters to the B group, and we want it to be as large as possible. To do this we can (1) make lightning as resiliant as we can so onchain spends are rare, (2) make bitcoin as efficient as possible so we can cram as much as we can into what we have.

(1) Making lightning more resilient and reliable is engineering. Lots of people working on this, even before we get soft-forks which could help further.

(2) More efficiency has two benefits: obviously if your own onchain spends are 20% smaller, that's 20% cheaper. But if *everyone's* onchain spends are 20% smaller, that means fees are lower *for everyone* too (and it's non-linear). So we really care about all Bitcoin usage! Some things are obvious wins: Taproot so you can avoid even putting the script onchain in many cases, FROST so you can cram your 2 of 3 or other scheme into a single key and signature. We know we want to get more aggressive with sharing one signature across multiple inputs (Cross Input Signature Aggregation), but that needs a lot more research, and a soft-fork.

But even with all these, the math is clear: some people, even if you somehow gave them their wealth in a UTXO, it couldn't afford its own fees to spend. The C group is real. Spoiler alert: we don't have an answer for this! But let's look at some approaches people have tried.

Firstly, there are attempts to move these people into the B group: give them long enough that maybe fees will reach a point they can afford. This seems unlikely to me:

1. As fees increase everyone will start doing the work to take advantage of low fee times, and that itself means that low-fee times won't be so low.

2. These schemes tend to increase onchain footprints, so they need fees to drop a lot to overcome that (typical is 2x the transaction size, so you need fees to halve to gain anything).

3. If you really can't afford the fee, you probably also can't afford to wait.

4. You still haven't actually dealt with those who really, really can't afford the fees. Ever.

Another suggestion is that someone (e.g. a lightning service provider) will lock up funds which would cover fees, in case something goes wrong. This doesn't work economically, because nobody is paying $100 for a $5 user (not at scale), but it doesn't even work mathematically: the reason some people will have small UTXOs is because there are not enough sats for 10 billion people with any realistic distribution.

There are two basic approaches left:

1. Group people, so they fall into the B category (i.e. onchain tx is possible, but expensive).

2. Trust someone, but rely on incentives.

1. Grouping people is possible, but they need to work together if somenthing goes wrong. So grouping inside a community is probably better than grouping with randos.

For example, there are various tree-of-transaction schemes where you go onchain only if the coordinator fails/goes rogue, and how much it costs you depends on whether anyone near you in the tree pays to get themselves out. These are basically free if nothing goes wrong (one UTXO required for thousands of users!). But this is subject to ghettoization, where the coordinator makes sure all the C people are grouped together, knowing none of them can afford the transactions they need to get their funds back. It's particularly bad because the coordinator can insert its own fake "whales" to make it look like it's not ghettoized.

You can play with incentives here, too: more research needed. The details matter!

2. Relying on incentives.

As a simple example, lightning-connected e-cash mints. They can't rug individuals very easily, they have to rug everyone together (or go fractional and rug the last ones to exit). Maybe with enough anonymity and reputation, these would be Good Enough.

More ambitious would be a single UTXO held for multiple people by a coordinator. Can we make it so that if a coordinator is dishonest, you can force them to burn your funds? Maybe burn more than your funds (ie. a bond)? Won't get your money, but it aligns incentives so they're not motivated to rug you. The details here really matter!

There's a cute scheme which has been proposed where the coordinator pays a temporary bond, and asserts that they actually have everyone's signature to transfer the funds. If nobody challenges within a week, they get the bond back and the funds move. If someone challenges, all the signatures are put onchain, and if they're not all valid, the bond gets half-burned and half-given to the (successful) challenger. This is hard to make work, though. Someone needs to get the money to challenge (hard if you don't have the money in the first place, plus it's hard to prove to someone you *didn't* sign something!), and then make sure nobody gets the challenge bond before them (in particular, a dishonest coordinator, seeing the game is up, completes the successful challenge *themselves* and gets half their bond back), and make sure someone can't grief and delay the settlement indefinitely or bankrupt the coordinator.

More research needed, here, too.

Summary

A longer post than I had expected to write. And it's buried in the middle of a thread nobody will read. (I do this sometimes. I suck at marketing I guess!)

Sub-fee bitcoin amounts will have tradeoffs, involving trusting someone who has more money than you (at least, in someone's competence, even if their *financial* incentives can be made to match yours). This is difficult to build well, and not a very exciting thing to build today, so it hasn't really happened (custodial things are much, much easier!).

This is also a key reason I believe we need to make Bitcoin more expressive: if we can do *more* with our own UTXOs, we can build better solutions. And by "we" I mean "someone smarter than me" of course!

Feedback welcome!

Great note. The grouping (with right incentives) that we can do right now is to open some channels on Liquid and bridge the payments. It's one network. The peg ins are essentially the grouped UTXOs.

Here's how to do it:

https://juraj.bednar.io/en/blog-en/2023/05/07/expanding-the-lightning-network-to-serve-billions-a-quick-win-strategy/

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Liquid is a "trust someone" solution. There are precautions to avoid targeting particular users (confidential amounts and assets) similar to ecash, but it's still a custodian.

We can certainly argue it's a "good enough" custodian, given the number, reputation and legal consequences of failure, but it's still a custodian.

Yes. A distributed custodian at least, which is very unique (basically I know of only Fedi attempting to do it this way, and Cashu doing multimint payments, so distributing the risk by amounts).

And it's chain level compatible with Lightning and can be one network.

You could even bridge your coins to channel backed by mainnet Bitcoin, or pay from both channels atomically.

Or do things like "bump this mainnet channel when fees are low, but in the meanwhile accept through Liquid".

I know this isn't the conversation you're having, but this just made a question come to mind...

Legally speaking, when you peg into something like liquid are you selling your Bitcoin for L-BTC or is L-BTC your receipt for them custodying your BTC. I guess the same question could be asked about Cashu/fedi? Or maybe we don't have legal frameworks for these things yet (most likely I guess)

Depends on the country, but in Slovakia, if the unit is the same, then it's not selling, just changing form. That is one of the best use-cases for Monero in entrepreneurship.

Say you want to have a Bitcoin reserve in a company, but also want to pay suppliers with some crypto. Sale is a taxable event that goes to weighted average and triggers capital gains. So actually buying Monero and spending it at the same moment is a tax free event (buy and sale price are the same, minus the fees), but doing it with anything Bitcoin (does not matter if Cashu/fedi/lightning) would be taxable event. Of course you can also use stablecoins.

You mean like doing a swap from bitcoin to monero and having that monero being send to the person you are paying? Doesn't that count as a sale and trigger cap gains?

no, swap fiat to monero, just to not have to use banks for payments.

selling bitcoin would be a tax event. buying something else and then immediately using it all to pay an invoice is tax zero.

so you can both save Bitcoin as a company and use advanced third millennium payment technologies (i.e. Not legacy camping system)

Ah you buy just the right amount of monero at an exchange (plus a bit for fees) and send that to the person you are paying? Could also keep a balance in a stablecoin and swap what you need to monero then.

no, you can't. at least not legally without tax in most countries.

if you don't want to pay tax, there needs to be no capital gain, so the exchange rate has to be the same. you have to buy and use all the monero for payment, holding zero at any moment.

Yes, I was referring to holding stables and swapping that to monero and then spending all of the monero.

That only works if your there is a stablecoin that is the same denomination in your company's accounting currency.

Right. Makes sense.

I like to think of ecash/liquid as stablecoins pegged to bitcoin rather than custodians. They succeed/fail on the same basis, but with the huge advantage that issuers can fully settle with eachother in the backend over the lightning or base layer network, and can have shared custody of reserves accross jurisdictions.