Nostr

You have plausible deniability. If someone says that you have X bitcoin, they can't actually proove that, unless you bought that directly from KYC service. The best mixing service is a bitcoin circular economy.

banjo 1y ago

So I'd counter that most BTC is purchased KYC--therefore, those coins are traceable.

And when they eventually make it into your wallet (no matter how circuitous the path), they'll be identifyable.

Worse still, is each transaction along the way is a taxable event, and the government will extract its pound of flesh from each.

AI makes all this efficient...and because the blockchain is public, all the data required for the analysis is available.

Mixing services...maybe, but I have little confidence that those are impervious to AI.

Essentially the origin of all coins is known (i.e. the original miner)- what's left is simply the legwork to trace their path across the different owners on the blockchain.

Conceptually similar to the old where's george on steroids...

itshttps://www.wheresgeorge.com/

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Discussion

Ronin 1y ago

If you buy KYC, you can get taxed, if you send to another person(random address) they can't tax that, they don't know who that person is, it can even get back to another address of you and they don't know it's also you.

banjo 1y ago

So--it leaves your wallet...

Government says: "I see your BTC has left your wallet--that's a taxable event--pay up!"

You say--"But I moved it to another wallet I own"

Government: "Great - we'll watch that wallet now and tax you if those coins move inappropriately--oh, and you owe us 1% for the Elizabeth Warren taxk"

I don't really see an alternative here--coins leave your wallet you get taxed, or you have to divulge that you own the downstream wallet...

Ronin 1y ago

Depends on your gov. Laws. Why would you pay taxes if you give bitcoin/cash to someone as a gift? Even if I buy something I don't pay extra taxes for buying, the seller is the one who pays taxes. But you can give bitcoin to someone off-chain with stuff like open dime. Either way, where we are at, we are not in a comply situation, we have to go against this. Bitcoin is money and not taxable. Build a bitcoin circular economy and do not comply. We cannot comply.

banjo 1y ago

Oh I totally agree with you there--we cannot comply. I just fear that our voices are not significant (and even if they were the government will do what it needs to do to stay in power).

I do not see (at least the US) government allowing BTC to move freely as a currency without taxation...and as I ruminate on this, I don't see a way around it....

Ronin 1y ago

Fiat system and Bitcoin are not compatible. We either allow fiat system to win, and bitcoin will just be a part of it, KYC, taxable, controlled. Or we push back for a bitcoin system to come on top over time. Here in my country if you sell your bitcoin in sell than a year time you are taxed 30% o gains. Do you think they can enforce that? Do you think i declare anything? They can't enforce it and they know it. No one cares about that law.

banjo 1y ago

Perhaps...yet think about J6...

Have there been any demonstrations regarding elections since?

Essentially they made an example of the people at J6, and now everyone is afraid to speak up (lest they be labelled 'terrorists' and locked up without trial...forever).

Now the precedent has been set - label someone a 'terrorist'. Once you've done that they're convicted without a trial--all rights are removed.

Most are complacent now--we're comfortable, and happy to give up our privacy for convenience and "safety".

Whether BTC is compatible with Fiat or not, I foresee it being absorbed...it'll be taxed and controlled. Maybe in some places in the world (El Salvador?) it won't be--but how many of us will be prepared to move there (really...) and even then, it's really only one election and one corrupt leader before things could change.

1984? We're already there....

Zach⚡️ 1y ago

This isn’t true. It’s impossible to prove who owns what. Let’s say I have a transaction with one input and two outputs. Which one is mine? Both? Neither? Is one change? Only I know, and the person I’m transacting with.

Even if I send to an address straight from an exchange, how does one know it’s my address? What if I’m paying a friend (which I’ve done in this manner before)

KYC and chain surveillance is based on assumed probabilities. It breaks down entirely after a few laps around a circular economy.