Nostr Web Client

This doesn’t sound self custodial to me. You don’t even control the keys.

If my understanding of Spark is correct, then it’s quite risky that many people trust Spark’s claims of security and self-custody. I can accept sacrificing some security for faster transactions and lower fees, but we shouldn’t let users believe it’s completely safe and become complacent.

It sounds to me like someone else holds the keys and you’re one of the required multisig keys. But so many questions about the spark ledger and who maintains that.

“Spark operators” help facilitate transfer (by signing the transaction) so that means the user is one of the keys. What happens if the spark operators decide not to sign the transaction?

Who maintains the spark ledger? Isn’t that a trust system? If it’s not in a blockchain?

Who generates these keys? Could the generator keep a copy for themselves? Where are the keys that belong to the user stored? It seems the user only has 12 mnemonic words, which aren’t the actual keys used for the multisig.

Exactly. What happens if they refuse to sign?

Too many questions. I’m not against it yet but I can’t rush into it without having all the answers.

TKay 2mo ago

Do these questions also apply to Arc?

If they refuse to sign, you use the unilateral exit.

This sounds like a contradiction. No ledger, but keeps a record. Is that not a ledger then? 🤨

https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/statechains/

Here’s my rough understanding, please correct me if I’m wrong:

Bob deposits funds into a Bitcoin address that’s controlled via multisig, with ownership held by Bob and Spark. When Bob wants to send funds to Alice through Spark, Spark generates new key shares and discards the old ones, and gives the new shares to Alice. Since Bob can no longer use the old shares on their own, ownership is logically transferred to Alice and Spark.

So, in theory, Spark doesn’t need to maintain a ledger. Whether it actually keeps any record, I’m not sure.

Keychat 2mo ago

Thanks for the guidance, I have a rough understanding of how statechains work. But this seems different from what I’ve seen in the Breez Spark API. I haven’t seen anything about storing or using key shares, all I see are the 12 mnemonic words.

semisol 2mo ago

And Spark is a proprietary protocol with the company that runs it having exclusive control of who can be a service provider.

All while they can monitor all your transactions.

Kkk, proprietary protocolo? It's all opensource, anyone can create their own Spark entity with members you decides.

And yes, privacy is a problem that they want to improve.

semisol 2mo ago

yes, the protocol is tightly integrated with their infrastructure, and they basically control every aspect of it

oh also I just remembered they are the shitheads behind the "uma" protocol, which was an attempt to introduce KYC to lightning addresses and zaps

You know that Lightspark works with tradicional finance, banks and so on. Spark is opensource and a "gift" to the community, you can create your own federation if you want. Stop being a conspirator.

It's so easy to go to docs and click on search button and make any question on https://docs.spark.money/start/overview

The search works like an IA. I'm sure all doubts can be easily answered there.

I’ve already spent quite a bit of time understanding Spark, and I don’t think I’m obligated to continue doing so.

If you’d like to convince me, please correct my misunderstandings from a technical perspective.

I think your are biased when the subject is Spark, so I think there's nothing I can do more to try to convince you. You have easy docs, search mode on docs in IA mode, you have videos that is not promotional videos. You have everything.

You think that the trust model is the same as a custodial solution, something that is very easy to understand that is not.

I understand that you have no interest in integrate it, and it's ok. Maybe someday if you have a really genuine interest to look on Spark with not a biased vision, you can change your opinion.

I believe I have a better understanding of how Spark works than you do. Over the past couple of days, I’ve thoroughly gone through the Spark and Breez API documentation, as well as reviewed the PR for integrating Spark. Only after this did I raise my concerns about Spark and why it is not a good fit for Jumble. If you think there’s an issue with my understanding, please point it out directly rather than making meaningless remarks.

Of course if you try to understand it, you will have better understand than me (you are more intelligent than me and you are a developer). This is the reason why I don't understand you came to the wrong conclusion about Spark.

🟠 isolabellart 2mo ago

It's not a question of being smarter or more knowledgeable, but rather that those of us who don't understand the more technical aspects shouldn't assume that others are wrong.

If Cody says he's studied it thoroughly and has doubts about Spark, it's likely that he's right, and he's not the only one who has doubts.

Even though I use Spark every day, I always remain cautious and simply suggest trying it out, then everyone can make their own choice.

I don’t care who’s smarter, nor am I certain that my understanding is correct. Spark’s documentation doesn’t reveal much about the technical details, so I can only arrive at a conclusion that makes sense to me based on the information I’ve read. Perhaps I’m wrong, and I welcome anyone to point out my mistakes.

However, if the assumption is that I’m simply biased or haven’t made the effort to understand, then there’s nothing more for me to say. After all, I’m under no obligation to investigate this, and I’ve already done more than I needed to.