ok moonboy, I hope you bought nvidia stock because it's the future ^^
Discussion
I’m sure I have nvidia in my portfolio.
Monero is a shitcoin and you cannot change that
Why Monero is a shitcoin ? Because it's not Bitcoin ?
Because tail emissions
OK so let me ask you, would you be open to changing your mind about tail emissions? Like, if I explained to you the reasoning behind them, not necessarily you would change your mind but would you be open to it? Having the discussion without just saying shitcoin all the time and intellectually engage?
I understand the reasoning and I disagree with it. Using tail emissions to incentivize mining makes Monero an easier money than Bitcoin. Bitcoin will maintain its value better.
Then you don't understand it.
I completely understand that increasing the money supply debases the currency. The permanent loss of Bitcoin is a deflationary force that benefits all holders. Transaction fees can and will support miners. Eternally increasing the supply is the reason Monero will never be adopted like Bitcoin.
like gold became worthless and was never adopted as money because of supply inflation ?
oh wait
Heard of asteroid mining? Things change buddy. Gold is weak. Monero is not as strong as Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is not strong as Gold (and will never be) ^^
Wait a catastrophic event and we will check that
OK so you don't understand. Its not about supporting miners. I mean kind of, but not really. It's about what miners are, and who receives the benefit of their service and who pays for it.
Youre right, a capped supply supports holders. But who pays for securing the network? The people moving it, spending it, using it. Holders get their wealth secured, which is the only reason the bitcoin itself has value, that it is secure, a currency that can disappear in the night is worthless no matter how few there are in the world, without having to cover the cost of the security they receive, their cost is subsidized by daily users. In game theory we call this the free rider problem, something everyone benefits from but only a subset pays for. The game theory in systems like this is that everyone tries to become one of the people that doesn't pay and then eventually there's not enough people paying for the thing to keep existing to benefit people. There is no other outcome.
So there's an incentive in bitcoin to not spend, to only hodl. But if people don't spend, security goes down. And I've already establishes that security is the primary sales pitch that bitcoin offers. So ultimately, bitcoin's value is only its security level, and it's security is covered by a decreasing percentage of the userbase. This means security *must* decrease beyond some point, whicheans the value must decrease, which means the price must decrease.
So, how do you resolve this free rider problem, and get everyone to cover the cost of securing their assets without one person having an outsized unfair cost of doing so, without tinkering with peoples funds and having the the cost apply proportional to the benefit they receive? Well, the answer is of course, an emission. I can go into the different emission schemes with different benefits and problems, but those are kind of out of scope, if you're interested I'll go into it. Suffice to say, a capped supply coin, any capped supply coin, no matter what, will suffer from the free rider problem and eventually go to 0.
You are very nice person to type all of that out 🙏
I wrote up a whole thing about this after I came to understand it, as well as some theoretical stuff about blockchain and preserving historical transaction data, like a year ago or something on nostr (my only publishing outlet now) and I didn't bookmark them lol so I kind of have to just write everything out every time.
I'm not the first to figure this out, there's a reason there are tail emissions in coins like grin and Monero, but since the rationale behind these decisions have been discussed, the focus has drifted to "pay miners" and not the deeper, more fundamental reason that underlies "pay miners", that everyone must cover the cost of what they get from one of these networks in proportion to their benefit or misaligned incentives will destroy the network.
I'm guilt of the drifting attention too for sure...
certainly aware of the free rider problem,
but everyone is always talking about mining incentives and the window shifts to what the dominant narrative is 😕
its a great explanation, thanks.
Why do you think transaction fees are not enough? I’ve never had any reason to avoid transaction fees. Won’t mining bitcoin become cheaper as energy becomes cheaper?
>> everyone tries to become one of the people that doesn't pay and then eventually there's not enough people paying for the thing to keep existing to benefit people
*Everyone* tries to avoid spending.
On a capped network everyone will ALWAYS try to avoid spending and hodl for as long as possible.
There is no incentive to spend because everyone assumes that their buying power will increase as time goes on
you Maxis are talking about it all day long.
The only thing pushing up transaction fees for the last two years have been people shitcoining on the network
In the absence of a block reward
only people who use sats for goods and services provide security for the network.
hodlers ride for free.
Since there will be no new supply,
everybody wants to hodl.
nobody wants to exchange for goods and services.
But since it's transactions that provide security,
On a long enough timeline
security goes to zero.
It's not about if transaction fees cover the cost of mining, it's about the fact that some people, holders, pay nothing to secure their wealth and that cost is subsidized by transaction fees. This isn't me complaining about some injustice or something, it is about the incentives on the bitcoin network.
Could they conceivably cover the costs of security?? For a time, yes, as you see now that is exactly what is happening, but ultimately incentives are your outcome. People are incentivized to hodl, because they can offload their security costs to those who spend or move around bitcoin, and it's compounding, it has a positive feedback loop; the more people just hodl, the more transaction fees have to cover the cost, the more incentive someone paying those fees has to just hodl. Ultimately, there's a threshold somewhere where security begins to decline, and with it, value.
Mining becoming cheaper with energy... I tried to look up the name of the phenomenon and I can't find anything (search engines filled with renewable energy blogspam) and I can't remember, but historically it has been empirically observed that, as energy becomes cheaper, people spend *more* on it and increase their energy usage. So far bitcoin has also followed this. Also, co wider increasing efficiency of ASICs does not lead to less mining power on the network, but simply a better edge to whoever can get their hands on it. Ultimately, security of the network is not a function of hash power, since machines get more powerful and cheaper, but is a function of share of total available hash power in the world held by the network, and that very closely correlates with energy expenditure by the network of miners. If the expenditure goes down, security does also.
As the block reward decreases, banks will run miners at a loss. This will centralise mining further.
I don't know about banks, but Satoshi designed bitcoin with an assumption early on, that all nodes mine and therefore all users mine. Later, he figured out that "nodes" would run in "server farms" and spoke about it. Of course he assumes all nodes mine there too, and everyone else uses remote nodes. Well the way the incentives are set up, eventually the only people that can afford to send transactions, barring a collapse of the value and therefore price, would be people that are 1) mining the transaction, or 2) sending a transaction to the miner that mined the block. They might collude with each other to allow each other to send free transactions, but that's not a stable state. This *is* the result of the block size limit, and a smaller block size makes success more likely, if your definition of success is a system where only miners send transactions. This is not peer to peer digital cash, but a settlement layer for sovereign entities.
But that's separate from the issue of uncapped supply I was talking about above.
I never heard something like that ^^
I'm curious to know what is the problem with tail emission ?