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Speaking for myself, it's not my intention to use strawman arguments, I've been on the receiving end of them as well; they're very annoying. These conversations always seem to end at an impasse, but let me try again by asking a question rather than making an argument.

I can understand why someone would be an agnostic. Epistemological certainty is hard/impossible. But what I don't understand is if you're consistent about it how can anything matter? If you don't believe in any kind of base reality how can you have a basis for ethics, or even a belief that you live in the real world?

BTC_P2P 1y ago

I do believe there is a base reality but I do not know that it can be discerned by humans. Maybe, but seems unlikely to me. I’m open to the possibility but I also have a hunch that the human mind isn’t equipped to comprehend it per se. That base reality is so bizarre it’s effectively beyond human comprehension. But, I could be wrong. I don’t know.

I genuinely believe that everyone should work hard, provide value, be honest, do their absolute best to help other people / animals and be their best self. If everyone did that the world would be a radically better place.

Corruption and injustice piss me off. If I was a morally corrupt person, I’d hate myself.

I feel exceptionally lucky to be alive, to think and to act. I see beauty all over. And to me there is so much meaning in just observing this world and being able to appreciate it. Then add in things like building and creating, epiphanies, learning, love, helping people, freedom, triumph. My life has so much subjective meaning. I really view every single day I am free and healthy as an infinitely valuable gift. I’ve already won the lottery by being born, everyday is just an extension.

I don’t know what’ll happen when I die. I accept that. I think something amazing might happen, just no way I can conceive of it yet. Maybe nothing will happen. But either way I do my best to live with honor and integrity because that’s what makes sense to me. That’s something I can be proud of and that no one can take from me, ever. And when the time comes, I’m hoping to die with honor. That’s the most I can do I figure.

Sorry to get all sentimental. Just trying to give you an insight into my personal philosophy.

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Discussion

hodlbod 1y ago

I respect all those values. And I guess there's a difference between having epistemological warrant for acting in a certain way, and using common sense to make your decisions. So it's possible to have values and beliefs, even if you can't fully justify them philosophically.

But having any values at all is still a result of implicitly trusting the intelligibility of the universe, which you don't necessarily affirm. If the universe isn't intelligible, none of your values really matter ultimately — but of course, you wouldn't be able to know. Maybe we're all crazy.

The reason I'm a Christian is because that problem bothers me. The universe seems intelligible; nothing would matter if it wasn't; therefore the only constructive belief possible is that it is intelligible. There are other rational beliefs, but they all boil down to theoretical, if not practical, nihilism.

So maybe I'm delusional, but there are other reasons to believe things than reason on its own. I am a fan of teleological arguments: "what is it for?" We need at least the illusion of purpose in order to function as moral agents. I prefer to believe that the purpose I have found for my life is also rational. If I'm wrong, nothing is lost because I live in an irrational, hostile universe. But if I'm right, I have the hope of being restored to the state of goodness I believe man was created in.

The assumed intelligibility of reality for me is evidence of God on its own. God is impossible to really define (as Mike said), but the Christian view is that he is the source of everything good — including order and intelligibility. The fact that order, or even the concept of order, even exists, is evidence of transcendent order. And once you're there, you're not far at all from a personal God.

atyh 1y ago

i remember playing around with Second Life (back when developers and nerds hung out in there. e.g. before it got creepy) and looking at the physics engines being used, shaders, primitives…and realizing the likelihood of the universe self assembling at random was less likely that all of Second Life self assembling on the internet.